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Poll

Question: Do you think Chivalry is dead?

Options:

I think it is making a comeback

I think it is dead

what is chivalry?


Only group members can vote in this poll.

Total Votes: 56

View Results

Something I read this morning is making me ask this question.


by on Nov. 23, 2012 at 8:08 AM
Replies (31-40):
parentalrights1
by on Nov. 23, 2012 at 12:10 PM
I think young girls are raised with mixed messages nowadays. We grow up taught by our parents that men are supposed to treat us certain ways (chivalry) but we are also trying to be treated with respect and resent past treatment of women so for a while I personally was under the impression that were to be treated to dinner and treated special (idealized image of the man) but at the same time wanted to equal so it kind of makes the men think women are demanding bitches. When I grew up I realized that the chivalry thing was no longer necessary now that we have a little more empowerment
parentalrights1
by on Nov. 23, 2012 at 12:14 PM
Quoting Claire-Huxtable:


lol I remember my ex boyfriends family was really traditional. They were very ino the chivalry thing (although ex turned out to be a little bitch in the end). I remember getting scolded for opening the door by myself when we were all on an outing together and having to fight with ex over the ticket while he frustratingly proclaimed that he wasn't "Dutch". It confused me at the time.
stacymomof2
by Ruby Member on Nov. 23, 2012 at 12:14 PM
1 mom liked this

That's just standard feminism bashing.

Whoever has the free hand should open the door.  Whoever reaches the door first should not let it slam in another person's face.  If someone is old or injured, they should get the seat on the train.

It doesn't have anything to do with chivalry, which I hope is dead, but respect, which I hope is not.

Quoting candlegal:

I agree that doors should be opened for other people.  I just don't think that when a man does it for a woman, he should be ridiculed for it.   This was what was going on when feminism first started up.

Quoting romalove:

 I think people should open doors for other people, and be polite about it.

I think people should have good manners towards each other.

I have raised my kids, a boy and two girls, on that premise.  You needn't be deferential to one gender or another, just be kind to people in general.

If that means chivalry is dead, I'm OK with it, and throw my dueling gloves into the fireplace.



Clairwil
by Ruby Member on Nov. 23, 2012 at 12:15 PM
Quoting Claire-Huxtable:

the basis of chilvary came from these rules of Eleanor of Aquitaine's court


The following set of rules is based on the De Amore of Andreas Capellanus, as adapted in Appendix 1 of Ann S. Haskell's A Middle English Anthology (Detroit: Wayne State UP, 1985). To find out more about Andreas Capellanus, click here.

1. Marriage should not be a deterrent to love.

2. Love cannot exist in the individual who cannot be jealous.

3. A double love cannot obligate an individual.

4. Love constantly waxes and wanes.

5. That which is not given freely by the object of one's love loses its savor.

6. It is necessary for a male to reach the age of maturity in order to love.

7. A lover must observe a two-year widowhood after his beloved's death.

8. Only the most urgent circumstances should deprive one of love.

9. Only the insistence of love can motivate one to love.

10. Love cannot coexist with avarice.

11. A lover should not love anyone who would be an embarrassing marriage choice.

12. True love excludes all from its embrace but the beloved.

13. Public revelation of love is deadly to love in most instances.

14. The value of love is commensurate with its difficulty of attainment.

15. The presence of one's beloved causes palpitation of the heart.

16. The sight of one's beloved causes palpitations of the heart.

17. A new love brings an old one to a finish.

18. Good character is the one real requirement for worthiness of love.

19. When love grows faint its demise is usually certain.

20. Apprehension is the constant companion of true love.

21. Love is reinforced by jealousy.

22. Suspicion of the beloved generates jealousy and therefore intensifies love.

23. Eating and sleeping diminish greatly when one is aggravated by love.

24. The lover's every deed is performed with the thought of his beloved in mind.

25. Unless it please his beloved, no act or thought is worthy to the lover.

26. Love is powerless to hold anything from love.

27. There is no such thing as too much of the pleasure of one's beloved.

28. Presumption on the part of the beloved causes suspicion in the lover.

29. Aggravation of excessive passion does not usually afflict the true lover.

30. Thought of the beloved never leaves the true lover.

31. Two men may love one woman or two women one man.

That's the later 'courtly love' aspect of Chivalry, which can be summarised as a game whose stages are:

  • Attraction to the lady, usually via eyes/glance
  • Worship of the lady from afar
  • Declaration of passionate devotion
  • Virtuous rejection by the lady
  • Renewed wooing with oaths of virtue and eternal fealty
  • Moans of approaching death from unsatisfied desire (and other physical manifestations of lovesickness)
  • Heroic deeds of valor which win the lady's heart
  • Consummation of the secret love
  • Endless adventures and subterfuges avoiding detection


I find more attractive the original sort of chivalry:

  • To fear God and maintain His Church

  • To serve the liege lord in valour and faith

  • To protect the weak and defenceless

  • To give succour to widows and orphans

  • To refrain from the wanton giving of offence

  • To live by honour and for glory

  • To despise pecuniary reward

  • To fight for the welfare of all

  • To obey those placed in authority

  • To guard the honour of fellow knights

  • To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit

  • To keep faith

  • At all times to speak the truth

  • To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun

  • To respect the honour of women

  • Never to refuse a challenge from an equal

  • Never to turn the back upon a foe

parentalrights1
by on Nov. 23, 2012 at 12:16 PM
Quoting frankiesma530:

Chivalry is dying because people let their kids be disrespectful assholes so those kids grew up not to know any better.

I don't think people are raising disrespectful assholes. I think ideas about what is or isn't respectful change and people with more traditional ideas can't understand or relate
Stephanie329
by Platinum Member on Nov. 23, 2012 at 12:17 PM
1 mom liked this
It's interesting to see how others perceive chivalry. I've never felt like a helpless flower because a man might hold the door open for me. I don't expect it, but it's appreciated. I hold the door open for anyone. My boys do hold the door for females and subscribe to "ladies first", I had no idea it was anti feminist to do so. I'm as feminist as they come - or thought I was. (This is just an in general response to the replies I've been reading, you may or may not feel this way).

Quoting ButterMeUp:

I hope it is. I am not some helpless little flower who deserves special treatment. I am a mans equal and can , for the most part, do the same things he is. I prefer respect for all genders, not just one. 

Posted on CafeMom Mobile
gdiamante
by Silver Member on Nov. 23, 2012 at 12:19 PM
2 moms liked this

I've NEVER seen a man ridiculed for that. Never once in 49 years. I've seen men ridiculed for NOT doing it, however. And for not giving  up a seat to his elders or to children or to pregnant women. 

I don't need a man to open a door for me unless my hands are full. I won't say no if he does it and I don't need him to do it (I'll say "thank you"), but I also won't think anything of it if he lets me open the door as well.

Quoting candlegal:

I agree that doors should be opened for other people.  I just don't think that when a man does it for a woman, he should be ridiculed for it.   This was what was going on when feminism first started up.

Claire-Huxtable
by on Nov. 23, 2012 at 12:21 PM
1 mom liked this
I have. Several times. "I don't need a man to open my door" or "I don't need you to give me a seat. I'm not weak"


Quoting gdiamante:

I've NEVER seen a man ridiculed for that. Never once in 49 years. I've seen men ridiculed for NOT doing it, however. And for not giving  up a seat to his elders or to children or to pregnant women. 

I don't need a man to open a door for me unless my hands are full. I won't say no if he does it and I don't need him to do it (I'll say "thank you"), but I also won't think anything of it if he lets me open the door as well.

Quoting candlegal:

I agree that doors should be opened for other people.  I just don't think that when a man does it for a woman, he should be ridiculed for it.   This was what was going on when feminism first started up.


Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
Stephanie329
by Platinum Member on Nov. 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM
In general, children have become more disrespectful. It's been a much talked about subject here in this group. I'm absolutely amazed what *some*parents will tolerate. This has nothing to do with chivalry. All can agree that hitting your parent and telling them to shut up is disrespectful.

Quoting parentalrights1:

Quoting frankiesma530:

Chivalry is dying because people let their kids be disrespectful assholes so those kids grew up not to know any better.


I don't think people are raising disrespectful assholes. I think ideas about what is or isn't respectful change and people with more traditional ideas can't understand or relate
Posted on CafeMom Mobile
candlegal
by Judy on Nov. 23, 2012 at 12:27 PM
1 mom liked this

It has been interesting to see how people relate to the word chivalry.

Quoting Stephanie329:

It's interesting to see how others perceive chivalry. I've never felt like a helpless flower because a man might hold the door open for me. I don't expect it, but it's appreciated. I hold the door open for anyone. My boys do hold the door for females and subscribe to "ladies first", I had no idea it was anti feminist to do so. I'm as feminist as they come - or thought I was. (This is just an in general response to the replies I've been reading, you may or may not feel this way).

Quoting ButterMeUp:

I hope it is. I am not some helpless little flower who deserves special treatment. I am a mans equal and can , for the most part, do the same things he is. I prefer respect for all genders, not just one. 


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