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The Right To Evangelize At School?

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I noticed a new advertisement today, from the Alliance Defending Freedom for Faith and Justice, and I clicked on it to see what it's about.  It's about letting people know their rights regarding faith and public school.  I read the FAQ and according to this group students have the right to pray, read scripture, and EVANGELIZE.

Evangelize is what I want to talk about.  I fully understand that kids are permitted to pray in school, wear religious gear, read holy books, etc.  It's the evangelizing that I question, because it calls into question where one person's right to religious freedom clash with another person's right to religious freedom.  Would you want your non-Christian child to be evangelized by another child at a public school?  I think that crosses the line.

What do you all think?

by on Dec. 4, 2012 at 6:04 AM
Replies (361-370):
RhiannonMare
by on Dec. 5, 2012 at 5:42 PM
1 mom liked this

Ok, I'll join you other there. Goddess knows I wouldn't want to upset *anyone* with my talk about my "non-Christian" belief system!

Quoting punky3175:

I've been taking classes on Witchcraft for a little over a year now but I'm leaning towards a Celtic path. My goal is to research Druidism more once this last class in the series finishes. That should (hopefully) be March. I've always felt drawn to a nature based path rather than Wicca and casting spells. Druidism specifically has drawn my interest and fascination. I started another thread on religious discussions so we can continue this over there (I'd like to know how long you've been following the Druidic path.)

Quoting RhiannonMare:

Punky, what path do you follow, if you don't mind me asking? I'm a Druid, BTW. So is my son.

Quoting punky3175:

You can try to turn this around all you want but I'm not at all playing 'victim' or offended by the fact you disagree with me. I'm not that easily offended. My skin is WAY thicker than that. And I believe I demonstrated an understanding of not being the 'right' kind of Christian and even mentioned it last night. Nor have I called you or even implied you were a 'mean' Christian. So - I'm done trying to discuss with you. You too easily go on the defensive



And remember - you started this tonight. I wasn't going to engage you.




Quoting Claire-Huxtable:

Just like you are playing the poor, picked on pagan by the mean Christians?

I haven't done anything towards you except disagree that evangelizing in school should be banned.   That is all I have disagreed with and you seem to have a real issue with it.


I don't know how you feel because I haven't asked.  I tend not ask religious questions that are personal of people I don't know.

And this is slight, but try being the red-headed stepchild of Christianity and sometimes both Christians and non-Christians like to mock or attack or insult what they see as a lack of faith if you are Episcopalian.   You aren't Catholic but you aren't Protestant and you like your liquor so you can't be Mormon or Seventh Day.  Or the atheists love to remind you that you really don't have a faith because your religion allows gays to be ordained.

You ignore it, you joke about it, or you simply tell them that their breath smells.   But never, ever would I tell someone that they should not have the right to evangelize in school.



Quoting punky3175:

There you go with your poor persecuted Christian act again. *eye roll*





For me - my path is exactly that - MY path. It's for me and no one else. I don't feel the need to 'share' it with others. I felt the same when I was a Christian. My faith in the Divine (or anyone else's faith) should be far more important to them than any celebrity whether sports, reality TV or actors.





I will never agree that any religion is part of pop culture. Because really is it all that 'popular' to be a devout Christian? To live your (general) life by the bible? Don't you (general) set yourself (general) up for mockery if you (general) claim to live a Christian life? Just ask Kirk Cameron and the kid from 2 1/2 Men. And those people share the majority faith of the country.





How do you (specifically) think us 'non-Christians' (since we all seem to get lumped together) feel when people find out we don't share their beliefs?





I respect everyone's path and have plenty of open, honest, civil discussions on the issue in my real life with people from all different religions.






Quoting Claire-Huxtable:

Not everyone would care if our children were told our religion was incorrect.

It's life.   People don't have to agree on religion, but neither should it be squelched in school.   Religion is a big part of the culture in this country.   To think it can somehow be separated from the latest discussion on who Kim Kardassian in screwing is silly.

And millions upon millions of Christians in this country know things like Christmas day and trees were co-opted.

But yeah, it is only the Christians that are intolerant of discussions.




Quoting punky3175:

Roma - you're a big ole scaredy cat. And I'm a big ole meanie because we aren't Christian and can separate religion from our lives. And I agree - having conversations with some people is impossible because they refuse to see anything but their own biased view. But if your child started telling their child(ren) that religion is ridiculous or mine started talking about how Chrisitianity 'stole' a bunch of Pagan traditions and Christ's birth story is just rehashing many old Pagan birth stories, they'd be all up in arms. Really does blow my mind but reconfirms I'm on the right path for me.







Quoting romalove:


Quoting macbudsmom:

Usually when people shut down a conversation its because they have nothing to come back with.  Gotcha.





Quoting romalove:


Quoting Claire-Huxtable:

No














Quoting romalove:


Quoting macbudsmom:

How exactly do you suggest we stop it?  Do we also stop the kids from talking about there favorite tv shows or video games we disagree with?  Where and how do you stop it?

You see no difference between talking about pop culture and trying to convert others to your religion?






Another end to the conversation.  You don't see the difference between converting kids and taste level.  We won't be able to come to any common ground.


No, I continued when you said something answerable.  See above.  When the discussion is converting kids at school is akin to pop culture choices, we are not even on the same planet for discussion.





romalove
by Roma on Dec. 5, 2012 at 5:46 PM
1 mom liked this


Quoting tooptimistic:

I disagree.  

I Would you include athiest children in the banned speech group?  A child who says to another , there is no God. Its a fairy tale.  You shouldn't believe in God. 

I think that if a childs parents don't like a religion, and another child says something it will just be a big mess. There have been athiest parents who will sue in the drop of a hat, and the athiest group who just looks for lawsuits.  

Kids have freedom of speech.  In this country its freedom of religion, not freedom of from religion.  

I personally am more offended that kids are talking about drugs and sex and getting drunk.Its getting crazy how far that goes.

Quoting romalove:


Quoting tooptimistic:

I asked before but no one aswered.  

Who is going to come up with the list of kids can and can't talk about in school?  Who is going to enforce it?  How will it be enforced?  Will thing like talking about drugs and sex and alchol be on the list too?  Who will determine what is offensive and what is not?  Will religion be taken out of social studies too?  Some of the lessons in my oldests social studies class boardlined on teaching religion as they teaching about "culture."

Do kids have the freedom of speech at all?

I don't think the line is all that hard to draw.

Kids can talk about faith if they want to at school.  Social studies classes can talk about the different faiths, ancient faiths, whatever they wish, in a scholarly informative fashion of why, when and how of religions, without deep discussions of faith tenets or danger of indoctrination.  There is a difference between saying "they believe" and "we believe" or "we should believe".  

It's when kids try and convert other kids that we run into an issue.  That is an active "thing" to do.  Who is going to enforce it?  I think it shouldn't be permitted at school as it is a form of harrassment.  How do I know that?  A kid who welcomes it isn't going to complain.  Anyone complaining is feeling harrassed.


I don't think kids should be telling other kids there is no God and it's a fairy tale any more than I think a kid should tell another that they should become a person of their faith for whatever reasons they give.  I think they shouldn't be trying to convert each other.  However, if one starts on either end, the other can respond however they wish.  

I disagree about your assertion that there is no freedom from religion.  There must be.  Freedom from religion is implicit in freedom of religion, or we have compulsory religion, which is no freedom at all.

I have a 16 year old, you're not telling me anything I don't know about what kids talk about and what they are into.  My daughter is a bit of an odd duck and isn't into any of that.  She is way more likely to have a discussion about oppression against minorities in every country, or about how terrible it is that women can be harrassed for wearing hijab, or discussions about labels for different types of sexuality, or which are the best classical composers.  

I'm exhausted.  LOL

12hellokitty
by Platinum Member on Dec. 5, 2012 at 6:14 PM
1 mom liked this


Quoting romalove:


Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting romalove:


Quoting macbudsmom:

lol some could definitely say yes...  have you not seen the way tweens in particular go complete ga ga for a pop star...  it definitely verges on worship...

And if my child doesn't like One Direction, but it keeps getting brought up daily through peoples conversations, clothing, etc... he/she may feel bullied or forced/peer pressured into liking/worshipping them.

Quoting romalove:


Quoting Claire-Huxtable:

Religion is part of pop culture and to think it isn't is insane.


Quoting romalove:


Quoting macbudsmom:

Usually when people shut down a conversation its because they have nothing to come back with.  Gotcha.


Quoting romalove:


Quoting Claire-Huxtable:

No





Quoting romalove:


Quoting macbudsmom:

How exactly do you suggest we stop it?  Do we also stop the kids from talking about there favorite tv shows or video games we disagree with?  Where and how do you stop it?

You see no difference between talking about pop culture and trying to convert others to your religion?



Another end to the conversation.  You don't see the difference between converting kids and taste level.  We won't be able to come to any common ground.

 

No, I continued when you said something answerable.  See above.  When the discussion is converting kids at school is akin to pop culture choices, we are not even on the same planet for discussion.


There is worship for Taylor Swift and One Direction?

 

It is true that there are children who are peer pressured into liking certain pop culture things.

I think that's irrelevant.

Religion is a completely separate issue.  I think if your child came home telling you that they had long talks with a kid in school about how there is no God and how Jesus was just some Jewish guy and they didn't want to go to church anymore because that kid made sense to him and now his religion didn't, you would be upset.  Religion is a core issue for most families.

Why is it different?  Moral values are not based on science but philosophy, so all views and beliefs should be allowed.  As for your example, it happens all the time.  You seem to think everyone who beleives in God holds the same beliefs.  My kids dont need to have a conversation with someone to try and get out of going to Church, but they know not going to Church is no more an option then not going to the Dr. Or dentist.  

 

Just curious but do you think the kid in your example has the right to try and convince another kid about God not being real?

To answer your question, I would say only if the other kid was trying to convert him first.  I don't think kids should be convincing other kids to join (or unjoin) religion in a public school.

I know everyone who believes in God don't hold the same beliefs.

LOL.  Considering the things kids are influenced about from other kids especially when they get into the older grades, I would say influencing about God should be the lest of a parents worries.  Kids influence other kids to do all sorts of things while their at public school and many of the things such as drugs and alcohol are illegal.  Kids are being influenced to drink cough syrup, sniff gas, choke themselves, take their parents prescription drugs, suck the air from whipped cream cans, the list can go on and on in the dangerous things kids are being influenced to part take in from other kids while at public schools. 

romalove
by Roma on Dec. 5, 2012 at 6:20 PM
You are entitled to your opinion.

I disagree.


Quoting 12hellokitty:



Quoting romalove:




Quoting 12hellokitty:


 


Quoting romalove:




Quoting macbudsmom:


lol some could definitely say yes...  have you not seen the way tweens in particular go complete ga ga for a pop star...  it definitely verges on worship...


And if my child doesn't like One Direction, but it keeps getting brought up daily through peoples conversations, clothing, etc... he/she may feel bullied or forced/peer pressured into liking/worshipping them.


Quoting romalove:




Quoting Claire-Huxtable:

Religion is part of pop culture and to think it isn't is insane.



Quoting romalove:




Quoting macbudsmom:


Usually when people shut down a conversation its because they have nothing to come back with.  Gotcha.



Quoting romalove:




Quoting Claire-Huxtable:

No






Quoting romalove:




Quoting macbudsmom:


How exactly do you suggest we stop it?  Do we also stop the kids from talking about there favorite tv shows or video games we disagree with?  Where and how do you stop it?


You see no difference between talking about pop culture and trying to convert others to your religion?




Another end to the conversation.  You don't see the difference between converting kids and taste level.  We won't be able to come to any common ground.


 


No, I continued when you said something answerable.  See above.  When the discussion is converting kids at school is akin to pop culture choices, we are not even on the same planet for discussion.



There is worship for Taylor Swift and One Direction?


 


It is true that there are children who are peer pressured into liking certain pop culture things.


I think that's irrelevant.


Religion is a completely separate issue.  I think if your child came home telling you that they had long talks with a kid in school about how there is no God and how Jesus was just some Jewish guy and they didn't want to go to church anymore because that kid made sense to him and now his religion didn't, you would be upset.  Religion is a core issue for most families.


Why is it different?  Moral values are not based on science but philosophy, so all views and beliefs should be allowed.  As for your example, it happens all the time.  You seem to think everyone who beleives in God holds the same beliefs.  My kids dont need to have a conversation with someone to try and get out of going to Church, but they know not going to Church is no more an option then not going to the Dr. Or dentist.  


 


Just curious but do you think the kid in your example has the right to try and convince another kid about God not being real?


To answer your question, I would say only if the other kid was trying to convert him first.  I don't think kids should be convincing other kids to join (or unjoin) religion in a public school.


I know everyone who believes in God don't hold the same beliefs.


LOL.  Considering the things kids are influenced about from other kids especially when they get into the older grades, I would say influencing about God should be the lest of a parents worries.  Kids influence other kids to do all sorts of things while their at public school and many of the things such as drugs and alcohol are illegal.  Kids are being influenced to drink cough syrup, sniff gas, choke themselves, take their parents prescription drugs, suck the air from whipped cream cans, the list can go on and on in the dangerous things kids are being influenced to part take in from other kids while at public schools. 

Posted on CafeMom Mobile
12hellokitty
by Platinum Member on Dec. 5, 2012 at 6:36 PM

 

You disagree with what?  That kids are being influenced by far worse things then religious issues?

I acknowledge a very small amount of issues happen regarding kids sharing their religion at school, but I personally think more often then not, the issue is unfounded or exaggerated in an attempt to make a caricature of Christianity.  If it's repeated enough that the little Tommy's are beating kids up with bibles and telling kids they are going to hell, people will start to believe it's happening at the majority of schools...

While I have no problem with discussing this topic or any other, your OP sounds like it could have been written by the Atheist organization that goes around looking to sue.  They don't really care if they win lawsuits or not, what they are doing is putting out propaganda in an attempt to influence peoples opinions in any negative way they can about religion.

 

Quoting romalove:

You are entitled to your opinion.

I disagree.


Quoting 12hellokitty:

 


Quoting romalove:


 


To answer your question, I would say only if the other kid was trying to convert him first.  I don't think kids should be convincing other kids to join (or unjoin) religion in a public school.


I know everyone who believes in God don't hold the same beliefs.


LOL.  Considering the things kids are influenced about from other kids especially when they get into the older grades, I would say influencing about God should be the lest of a parents worries.  Kids influence other kids to do all sorts of things while their at public school and many of the things such as drugs and alcohol are illegal.  Kids are being influenced to drink cough syrup, sniff gas, choke themselves, take their parents prescription drugs, suck the air from whipped cream cans, the list can go on and on in the dangerous things kids are being influenced to part take in from other kids while at public schools. 


romalove
by Roma on Dec. 5, 2012 at 6:48 PM


Quoting 12hellokitty:


You disagree with what?  That kids are being influenced by far worse things then religious issues?

I acknowledge a very small amount of issues happen regarding kids sharing their religion at school, but I personally think more often then not, the issue is unfounded or exaggerated in an attempt to make a caricature of Christianity.  If it's repeated enough that the little Tommy's are beating kids up with bibles and telling kids they are going to hell, people will start to believe it's happening at the majority of schools...

While I have no problem with discussing this topic or any other, your OP sounds like it could have been written by the Atheist organization that goes around looking to sue.  They don't really care if they win lawsuits or not, what they are doing is putting out propaganda in an attempt to influence peoples opinions in any negative way they can about religion.




If you read anything I've said, it's almost that I've lived in a bubble, where there isn't religious intrusion in public schools and people get along keeping to themselves or sharing about each other in a non-confrontational way.  I don't live in a place where my children are evangelized in school.  It isn't an issue here.

You see nothing wrong with sharing faith because you think faith is a good thing.  I see nothing wrong with sharing faith as information about another person, but I see something very wrong with witnessing and evangelizing in an attempt to convert others to believe as you do.  I see a world wracked by religious strife, of people actively disavowing science because it doesn't line up with their Biblical beliefs, of people of all different religions fighting and killing each other over belief rooted in the teachings from their holy books and their interpretations of such.

What propaganda was in my original post?  I asked a question.

RhiannonMare
by on Dec. 5, 2012 at 6:59 PM
2 moms liked this

No, you wouldn't, honey! I live in a mobile home and have a 12 year old truck. I'm po' folks!

Quoting romalove:


Quoting RhiannonMare:

Well, I was thinking about the part where she said she's never heard anyone say that anone was going to hell for not being a Christian. But then again, they do tend to flock together, so maybe her kids don't "mix" with the "non-believers."

Quoting romalove:


Quoting RhiannonMare:

Never lived in the South, have you?

Quoting mitty18:

My children have the right to go to school, pray, read their bibles, discuss their faith, and also have the right to tell their friends that they believe that Jesus is the to Heaven.
IN all of the religious talks i have been in and all the evangelizing that I've witness, never once have i heard ANYONE say that you're going to hell! Kids aren't going to be going that deep. I think that your looking at this from an adults mind, not a child's mind. You're going to deep with this.
My children know that if someone doesn't want to hear what they've got say or if they're uncomfortable to back off and leave them be. They know NOT to harass anyone about religion because that will not win anyone to Christ...


I would have guessed that's exactly where she lives LOL


She says she was born and raised there.  I should have bet with you, oh, I could have been rich rich rich....


Redwall
by Silver Member on Dec. 5, 2012 at 7:35 PM

I think if I had a non-Christian child, I'd just encourage him/her to say "no thank you, this goes against my beliefs".  I'm a Christian....but I'm not a fan of Bible huggers that come to my door and preach to me.  I don't think it crosses the line...I just think the child has the right to say "no thank you."  Just as I do when they come to my door.

futureshock
by Ruby Member on Dec. 5, 2012 at 8:09 PM

I agree.

I think that crosses the line.

12hellokitty
by Platinum Member on Dec. 5, 2012 at 8:41 PM

Basically what I'm saying is that kids for the MOST part students are NOT evangelizing at school.  It's not happening to an extent in which it would justify denying students the right to share their RELIGIOUS world view in the SAME way students have the right to share their SECULAR worldviews.  

Seriously first people complain about teachers sharing their religious views saying it's wrong because they are in a position of authority, now people are complaining because some students want to express their religious views even though students hold no authority.  It might help if those complaining would try an be consistent....

Quoting romalove:


Quoting 12hellokitty:


You disagree with what?  That kids are being influenced by far worse things then religious issues?

I acknowledge a very small amount of issues happen regarding kids sharing their religion at school, but I personally think more often then not, the issue is unfounded or exaggerated in an attempt to make a caricature of Christianity.  If it's repeated enough that the little Tommy's are beating kids up with bibles and telling kids they are going to hell, people will start to believe it's happening at the majority of schools...

While I have no problem with discussing this topic or any other, your OP sounds like it could have been written by the Atheist organization that goes around looking to sue.  They don't really care if they win lawsuits or not, what they are doing is putting out propaganda in an attempt to influence peoples opinions in any negative way they can about religion.




If you read anything I've said, it's almost that I've lived in a bubble, where there isn't religious intrusion in public schools and people get along keeping to themselves or sharing about each other in a non-confrontational way.  I don't live in a place where my children are evangelized in school.  It isn't an issue here.

You see nothing wrong with sharing faith because you think faith is a good thing.  I see nothing wrong with sharing faith as information about another person, but I see something very wrong with witnessing and evangelizing in an attempt to convert others to believe as you do.  I see a world wracked by religious strife, of people actively disavowing science because it doesn't line up with their Biblical beliefs, of people of all different religions fighting and killing each other over belief rooted in the teachings from their holy books and their interpretations of such.

What propaganda was in my original post?  I asked a question.


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