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“Why Is It O.K. To Have a Child with Someone You Know Won’t Stick Around?”

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This question comes from a blogger whom I greatly admire and respect.  However, her audience is black women so I will not post her entire article here, since I am not trying to ask this question of any one race.

For anyone interested, the article can be read here:

http://familyscholars.org/2012/06/22/why-is-it-o-k-to-have-a-child-with-someone-you-know-wont-stick-around/comment-page-1/#comment-130508


by on Dec. 8, 2012 at 9:46 PM
Replies (171-180):
futureshock
by Ruby Member on Dec. 10, 2012 at 11:48 AM
1 mom liked this


Quoting lga1965:

 Thank you---that is a lot of valuable information!

Personally, I am worried about the children because I don't think anyone even considers them ....their well being and their futures. Most Moms just jump into it and haven't thought about what kids need as they grow up. It is so much more complicated than 1) extended breast feeding... and....2) the big question of  " to vax or not to  vax". They think that they are the only issues in raising kids, most of the time. And there is so much more.

Quoting futureshock:


Quoting eviesmom453:

 But why do you care what anyone else does? Don't you have your own life to worry about? I am a single Mom and I intend on keeping it that way. In no way, does my life affect YOU:)

Quoting lga1965:

 

Quoting eviesmom453:

Maybe they don't think being a single parent is a death sentence?

You are obsessed!

 well, hell, if she is obsessed, then so am I!

What the heck? Are we going to give high fives to women who have sex with idiots and don't care if they get pregnant and then become single moms? Yeah, that's the ticket.


Your personal situation may not affect her but as an aggregate many people collectively having children out of wedlock and men abandoning those children DOES have a negative impact on society.

Why Illegitimacy is a Social Problem

Understanding Illegitimacy

1.72 million out-of-wedlock births amount to an overwhelming catastrophe for taxpayers and society.

The steady growth of childbearing by single women and the general collapse of marriage, especially among the poor, lie at the heart of the mushrooming welfare state. This year, taxpayers will spend over $300 billion providing means-tested welfare aid to single parents. The average single mother receives nearly three dollars in government benefits for each dollar she pays in taxes. These subsidies are funded largely by the heavy taxes paid by higher-income married couples.

America is rapidly becoming a two-caste society, with marriage and education at the dividing line. Children born to married couples with a college education are mostly in the top half of the population; children born to single mothers with high-school degrees or less are mostly in the bottom half.

The disappearance of marriage in low-income communities is the predominant cause of child poverty in the U.S. today. If poor single mothers were married to the fathers of their children, two-thirds of them would not be poor. The absence of a husband and father from the home also is a strong contributing factor to failure in school, crime, drug abuse, emotional disturbance, and a host of other social problems.

Single mothers are inherently in far greater need of government support than married couples, so an increase in single parenthood leads almost inevitably to an increase in government benefits and services and a thriving welfare industry to supply them.

http://blog.heritage.org/2010/04/12/understanding-illegitimacy/

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Broken Homes, Broken Hearts

Karl Zinsmeister of the American Enterprise Institute has said, "There is a mountain of scientific evidence showing that when families disintegrate, children often end up with intellectual, physical and emotional scars that persist for life." He continues, "We talk about the drug crisis, the education crisis, and the problem of teen pregnancy and juvenile crime. But all these ills trace back predominantly to one source: broken families."

Broken homes and broken hearts are not only the reason for so many social problems. They are also the reason for the incumbent economic difficulties we face as a culture. The moral foundation of society erodes as children learn the savage values of the street rather than the civilized values of culture. And government inevitably expands to intervene in family and social crises brought about by the breakdown of the family.

Social commentator Charles Murray believes that "illegitimacy is the single most important social problem of our time--more important than crime, drugs, poverty, illiteracy, welfare or homelessness because it drives everything else." The public costs of illegitimacy are very high. "Children born out of wedlock tend to have high infant mortality, low birth weight (with attendant morbidities), and high probabilities of being poor, not completing school, and staying on welfare themselves. As a matter of public policy, if not of morality, it pays for society to approve of marriage as the best setting for children, and to discourage having children out of wedlock."

In her famous article in Atlantic Monthly entitled "Dan Quayle Was Right," Barbara Dafoe Whitehead warned Americans of the cost of ignoring the breakdown of the family:

    If we fail to come to terms with the relationship between family structure and declining child well-being, then it will be increasingly difficult to improve children's life prospects, no matter how many new programs the federal government funds. Nor will we be able to make progress in bettering school performance or reducing crime or improving the quality of the nation's future work force--all domestic problems closely connected to family breakup. Worse, we may contribute to the problem by pursuing policies that actually increase family instability and breakup.

[T]he evidence from social-science research is coming in: The dissolution of two-parent families, though it may benefit the adults involved, is harmful to many children, and dramatically undermines our society."

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/broken.html
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The Real Welfare Problem Is Illegitimacy
Heather Mac Donald

Illegitimacy is the greatest cause of long-term poverty in this country; unless it comes down, the poverty rate won't, either. While some welfare mothers will thrive under the new welfare-to-work regime and will succeed in creating a stable home for their children, the majority will drift in and out of low-paid work for the rest of their lives, futilely seeking the grail of a permanent, "living-wage" job.

But the most pressing goal for welfare reform is ensuring the welfare of the children. While having an illegitimate child often dooms the mother to a life of poverty, illegitimacy may doom her child to far worse. Prisons, foster-care homes, and homeless shelters teem with fatherless children.

An unwed teen's baby is three times more likely to fail at school, three times more likely to commit suicide, and from 20 to 33 times more likely to suffer child abuse than are the children of low-income married parents. His prospects in later life are just as grim: 70 percent of long-term prisoners, 60 percent of rapists, and 75 percent of adolescents charged with murder grew up without fathers. The risks to children living outside a two-parent home go beyond social failure, as witness New York City's never-ending cortege of tiny coffins containing children beaten, suffocated, and scalded by their mothers' boyfriends.

No urban reform could have a greater effect, if successful, than attacking the culture of single parenthood.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/8_1_a1.html
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Single Mothers And The Illegitimacy They Bring

America Keeps Encouraging The Biggest Social Problem To Get Bigger
By Herb Denenberg, The Bulletin
Wednesday, April 08, 2009

The eminent social scientist Charles Murray says, “Illegitimacy is the single most important social problem of our time — more important than crime, drugs, poverty, illiteracy, welfare or homelessness because it drives everything else.”

“Seventy-two percent of juvenile murderers and 60 percent of rapists come from single-mother homes. Seventy percent of teenage births, dropouts, suicides, runaways, juvenile delinquents, and child murderers involve children raised by single mothers. Girls raised without fathers are more sexually promiscuous and more likely to end up divorced. A 1990 study by the Progressive Policy Institute showed that after controlling for single motherhood, the difference between black and white crime rates disappeared.”

A British journalist Martin Newland in Maclean’s magazine wrote, “Increasingly, but belatedly, politicians are beginning to identify the decline of marriage and the family as the major cause of … social dysfunctions including ill health, crime, rampant promiscuity and welfare dependency.”

A 2008 study led by Georgia State University economist Benjamin Scafidi found that single mothers — unwed or divorced — cost the U.S. taxpayer $112 billion every year. That estimate doesn’t include the huge expenditure of law enforcement resources in dealing with the behavior flowing from single motherhood.


http://thebulletin.us/articles/2009/04/08/herb_denenberg/doc49dc278e8e4ff020049158.txt
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$112-billion: What Divorce and Illegitimacy Costs the Taxpayer
Sunday, June 29, 2008
By David R. Usher

The Institute for American Values (IAV) has issued a major report titled “The Taxpayer Costs of Divorce and Unwed Childbearing“, conservatively estimating the cost to taxpayers at $112 billion.

This is a very conservative estimate because it either understates or does not include federal expenditures driving decisions to not marry or to have children for profit. Programs that stimulate marriage-absence include Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF), and programs that are widely abused to abort marriage such as the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA), and the Victims of Crime Act (VOCA).

It is estimated that three-quarters of our massive national health care insurance problem would go away if mothers simply married the fathers of their children.


http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/06/29/112-billion-what-divorce-and-illegitimacy-costs-the-taxpayer/
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Fatherless America: Confronting Our Most Urgent Social Problem.

Evidence abounds that fatherlessness correlates very highly with poverty, criminal behavior, and myriad other social dysfunctions.

Fatherlessness is...the leading cause of declining child well-being in our society. It is also the engine driving our most urgent social problems, from crime to adolescent pregnancy to child sexual abuse and to domestic violence against women."

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Fatherless+America:+Confronting+Our+Most+Urgent+Social+Problem.-a017380722
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


 

I totally agree.

futureshock
by Ruby Member on Dec. 10, 2012 at 11:51 AM


Quoting Radarma:

 FS,

Within one of the source responses...below, this is certainly a demographic worthy of mention, yes? 

<>

There are many women who have waited to procreate in order to line up the ducks, all the while the clock continues to tick and eventually they are faced with the ultimate decision OF single parenthood. There are those women too.
(pointing this out because sometimes ppl mistake your posts for meaning: 'single mothers suck and are dumb'...lol)

Anywhos...enjoyed her style, thanks for sharing her!

I agree, I can definitely understand why women in that situation would choose to have a child.  The question is, what is going wrong in society that is making it difficult to find a man to marry? 

These children will still lack a father but at least they won't have to also deal with poverty, in general.

futureshock
by Ruby Member on Dec. 10, 2012 at 11:54 AM


Quoting luckystars2012:

With the rate that marriages fail, it's pretty safe to say that marriage does not guarantee that a guy will stick around.

I've been in a solid committed relationship for over three years, and we are TTC. But no, I am not married and have no plans to be. I simply do not feel that marriage is necessary, and see no true benefit from it.

However I am also financially independent, with my own six figure income, retirement, and health insurance, so IF my relationship ended I could easily maintain my lifestyle without falling back on welfare or my children suffering.


Quoting futureshock:

Here is an excerpt:

[T]he real question shouldn’t be why [people don't]
value marriage, but why the some folks think it’s
okay to make a child without ensuring that the other parent stick
around.


Children suffer from more than just lack of money, many suffer from lack of a committed and decent father.  I'm not saying anything about your case specifically, just in general I am saying that the problems faced by many children born out of wedlock come from factors surrounding absent fathers, not just lack of money.

futureshock
by Ruby Member on Dec. 10, 2012 at 11:55 AM


Quoting gammie:

Not okay the child always miss the parent they did not have.

I cannot understand why so many people do not realize this.

futureshock
by Ruby Member on Dec. 10, 2012 at 11:56 AM


Quoting cueballsmom:

Quoting Radarma:

 FS,


Within one of the source responses...below, this is certainly a demographic worthy of mention, yes?  <> There are many women who have waited to procreate in order to line up the ducks, all the while the clock continues to tick and eventually they are faced with the ultimate decision OF single parenthood. There are those women too. (pointing this out because sometimes ppl mistake your posts for meaning: 'single mothers suck and are dumb'...lol)


Anywhos...enjoyed her style, thanks for sharing her!


What exactly do you like about this? That she feels she MUST make another one of her? That the "need" to have a child trumps all else and justifies herself?

She is talking about two different people here.  The quote is from a commenter, not the author.  The author is the one whose style she enjoys.


futureshock
by Ruby Member on Dec. 10, 2012 at 12:01 PM


Quoting lga1965:

 I don't believe it either.

 

Quoting stacefaceninja:

Um yes. I think I made it pretty clear that that's what I believe. Just say what ya want to say instead of being silly and using gigantic letters. In my little corner of the world, yes, i see it and hear about it all the time. Maybe you don't. I just wanted to share my opinion...umm...

Quoting futureshock:


Quoting stacefaceninja:

I don't think anyone sets out to have a kid with someone they think will run off. Regardless of what anyone says, it is impossible to know what someone is always going to do. Perfectly happy married father's of four leave just as often and as heartlessly as crackhead baby daddy's. JMO

REALLY?  You SERIOUSLY believe this?

Perfectly happy married father's of four leave just as often and as heartlessly as crackhead baby daddy's.


 

It is absolutely not true, not even close.  What some people don't realize is that these sorts of things are not merely a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact.  The fact is that unmarried men leave relationships much more frequently than married men.

Unmarried Men Leave Relationships Which Include Children At Much Higher Rates Than Married Men.

mehamil1
by Platinum Member on Dec. 10, 2012 at 12:02 PM

Mana straight from heaven. 

From all of us! Where do you think? It's the mark of an advanced society that cares for those less fortunate. To care for those who are having difficulty and those who cannot care for themselves. Do you think humanity has gotten this far from indivudualism? No. We are a collectivest species and we are as strong as the weakest among us. This nation has one of the worst child poverty rate in the developed world (only Romania is ahead of us). That is a national embarressment. 

Where does the help come from? Are you kidding me? Help is everywhere in every shape and form. No one is an island. No one can get anywhere by themselves. That's not who we are and we never have been and never will be. Get that through your mind! 

Quoting futureshock:
Quoting mehamil1:

You are looking at this with western 21st century socially conservative family values (ie, don't have them babies till you are married/in a stable relationship) and ignoring the very very very human aspect of this. 

Our culture has changed. We value different things. And in order for this influx of single parents to not turn out as you think it will, more help needs to be allocated to parents system wide, at the macro level, institutionally. Times have changed we are not going back. We need to adapt to the change or suffer the consequences. Not hold on to the past and try like all hell to swim upstream. 

Humans have been walking around in this form for about 1.2 million years, give or take. Our brains became what they are now possible 250,000 years ago, give or take. We've been living in an agricultural society for the past 10,000 years, give or take. Our ways and culture and values and morals are CONSTANTLY changing. That is part of being human. Always has been.

Look at this issue from the human perspective, not the "what is right" perspective. Because when it comes to us, that is constantly changing. Your answer lies in there.  

Quoting futureshock:
Quoting mehamil1:

Because we're fucking human. 

Everyone is human and this is happening so much more in just the recent past, even just since 2002.  I would really like to understand what is at the root of this sudden jump in numbers.

The facts are that there has been a dramatic increase in the numbers of single parents just since even 2002. Something is causing this and it cannot be birth control failure since birth control did not suddenly become less reliable since 2002.

Quote:

"After having relative stability in births to unmarried women from the mid 1990s to 2002, we've seen really big increases between 2002 and 2007," said Stephanie J. Ventura, director of the Reproductive Statistics Branch at the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics and author of the report.
In the United States, out-of-wedlock births increased by 26 percent between 2002 and 2007, according to the report. In 1980, the rate of out-of-wedlock births was 18 percent.
Though the reasons for the increase are not clear, Ventura said, one factor might be that having a child when you're not married is no longer stigmatized.
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/womens-health/articles/2009/05/13/more-single-women-are-having-babie

Where is this help supposed to come from?

And in order for this influx of single parents to not turn out as you think it will, more help needs to be allocated to parents system wide, at the macro level, institutionally.


mehamil1
by Platinum Member on Dec. 10, 2012 at 12:03 PM

I have answered this already. Many times. You are closed minded and this subject is not worth discussing with you. You want certain answers to fit your world view. Alas, that is just not going to happen because that is not the reality. 

Quoting futureshock:
Quoting mehamil1:

And this isn't a product of modern civilization. It's been happening since the dawn of our species and maybe even before then. How we view this (negatively) helps bring about consequences that we don't want. 

Quoting acrogodess:

Because being married and "getting to know a man" before having kids is no guarantee that he won't change his mind later. Woman who get married and honestly think dad will stick around can still end up as single mothers.

But that does not answer the question of why it has increased so dramatically in such a short period of time.

Quote:

Everyone is human and this is happening so much more in just the recent past, even just since 2002.  I would really like to understand what is at the root of this sudden jump in numbers.

The facts are that there has been a dramatic increase in the numbers of single parents just since even 2002. Something is causing this and it cannot be birth control failure since birth control did not suddenly become less reliable since 2002.


futureshock
by Ruby Member on Dec. 10, 2012 at 12:07 PM


Quoting jonnlilithsmom:

it's not

unfortunately, I think most women, like me, thought he would stay...

with my son's father, I met him when I was 15... I did marry him when I was 19... totally expected him to stay, but he was fucking my best friend before my son turned 4

I knew my daughter's father for more than 2 years before I got pregnant,

I was SURE he was THE ONE!, finally!

I was wrong.  he didn't cheat on me, but he left because he "couldn't handle being a full time dad" after his own parents died

Being wrong doesn't make me an idiot, or a bad parent.  Being wrong only confirms that I am human.

Being wrong doesn't make me an idiot, or a bad parent.

No one is calling you names.

I was SURE he was THE ONE!, finally!

Then this isn't about you, right?

mehamil1
by Platinum Member on Dec. 10, 2012 at 12:09 PM

That is not what I said at all. I am speaking from an sociological point of view (I have a B.A. in Sociology) and with a mix of anthropological views with the biology aspect of humanity (Anthropology, biological anthropology was my minor for sociology, my other BA is Women's Studies with a minor in Social Work).

I am speaking from the macro perspective, from the larger/grander view. I'm taking the long view. And yes, our society has changed that much. This is my educated opinion based on a shit ton of research over many years. Family values have changed but that does not mean it has to be negative. Society and the institutions within it must adapt to these changes in order for these changes to not be negative. Embrace the change because we are not going back. Adapt to the changes so the consequences are not dire and a whole host of children and their parents are left in the dust because our society has held on to the past kicking and screaming that before was a better way. We are doing things differently now. We must adapt to it. 

Quoting lga1965:
Not everyone has changed that much. And. I don't believe the culture and values have changed that much either except in
areas where there is poverty and lack of education. Giving up on family values is a.negative change, nothing to be proud of. Some change is not good. Being unmarried is not "being modern and "with it "/span>
Quoting mehamil1:

You are looking at this with western 21st century socially conservative family values (ie, don't have them babies till you are married/in a stable relationship) and ignoring the very very very human aspect of this. 

Our culture has changed. We value different things. And in order for this influx of single parents to not turn out as you think it will, more help needs to be allocated to parents system wide, at the macro level, institutionally. Times have changed we are not going back. We need to adapt to the change or suffer the consequences. Not hold on to the past and try like all hell to swim upstream. 

Humans have been walking around in this form for about 1.2 million years, give or take. Our brains became what they are now possible 250,000 years ago, give or take. We've been living in an agricultural society for the past 10,000 years, give or take. Our ways and culture and values and morals are CONSTANTLY changing. That is part of being human. Always has been.

Look at this issue from the human perspective, not the "what is right" perspective. Because when it comes to us, that is constantly changing. Your answer lies in there.  

Quoting futureshock:
Quoting mehamil1:

Because we're fucking human. 

Everyone is human and this is happening so much more in just the recent past, even just since 2002.  I would really like to understand what is at the root of this sudden jump in numbers.

The facts are that there has been a dramatic increase in the numbers of single parents just since even 2002. Something is causing this and it cannot be birth control failure since birth control did not suddenly become less reliable since 2002. 

Quote:

"After having relative stability in births to unmarried women from the mid 1990s to 2002, we've seen really big increases between 2002 and 2007," said Stephanie J. Ventura, director of the Reproductive Statistics Branch at the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics and author of the report.
In the United States, out-of-wedlock births increased by 26 percent between 2002 and 2007, according to the report. In 1980, the rate of out-of-wedlock births was 18 percent.
Though the reasons for the increase are not clear, Ventura said, one factor might be that having a child when you're not married is no longer stigmatized.
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/womens-health/articles/2009/05/13/more-single-women-are-having-babie


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