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Christians successfully restore prayer to board meetings

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The Miami-Dade Board of County Commissioners has voted to restore prayer to open meetings.

In 2004, two members of the board decided they were offended with Christian prayer and successfully lobbied fellow members to open instead with a moment of silence. The Christian Family Coalition got to work and one of the hostile members was replaced with a Christian, as spokesman Anthony Verdugo explains.

Verdugo

"To eliminate religious speech in the form of solemnizing the prayer is discrimination, and so what we told the commissioners is all we want to do is restore free-speech rights and restore speech equality so that everyone can speak openly and freely so long as it's civil discourse," he tells OneNewsNow.

The commission voted 8-3 to restore prayer prior to the roll call for the meeting.

"We are a metropolitan area, but we also have to be an inclusive and welcoming community and we talk about being inclusive and welcoming and tolerant," he says. "That includes people of faith also because we too are part of this community. We're not isolated from it, so our free-speech rights must also be respected and upheld."

Under the policy, the commissioners will select on a rotating basis someone from the area to conduct the prayer -- or commissioners themselves can elect to offer the prayer.

source

by on Dec. 9, 2012 at 7:24 AM
Replies (341-350):
KamWorthy
by Silver Member on Dec. 13, 2012 at 12:51 PM
I'm a Christian? Are you sure?
Quoting LauraKW:

 A perfect example of Christian entitlement (and I'm speaking from a Christian perspective).

Quoting KamWorthy:

It all depends on what side you're on I guess. ;)
Quoting LoveMyBoyK:

It is morally repugnant to turn an all inclusive moment of silence into a majority rules exclusive prayer session, especially at a government meeting.


KamWorthy
by Silver Member on Dec. 13, 2012 at 1:29 PM
"Morally repugnant" is subjective, a perceptions. That is why I said it depends on which side you are on. It seems that many are offended that this was determined by a voting system, in which case the "yes" votes outnumbered the "No" votes. This is the way it is done. If some need reminding, just think back on this last election. There were many that were upset that Obama received the votes in both the electoral and popular he needed to win the majority. In life, some will win, some will lose, and some are born to sing the blues.
Quoting candlegal:

yes it does, some of us find it morally repugnant that they had to stop praying because of one person.

Quoting KamWorthy:

It all depends on what side you're on I guess. ;)
Quoting LoveMyBoyK:

It is morally repugnant to turn an all inclusive moment of silence into a majority rules exclusive prayer session, especially at a government meeting.


Quoting KamWorthy:

Eh, no, of course not lol... apparently according to the Miami-Dade Board of county Commissioners this is not forced prayer. This is one of those instances where you and others may not like the outcome, but the votes have spoken. Just like in this last political election. The people voted into law what they wanted. It is what it is.


Quoting Raintree:


Quoting KamWorthy:

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in freedom of expression at all". -Noam Chomsky

Are you thinking that old Noam thinks that coerced, governmental prayer is 'freedom of expression'?



romalove
by Roma on Dec. 13, 2012 at 2:08 PM
1 mom liked this


Quoting KamWorthy:

"Morally repugnant" is subjective, a perceptions. That is why I said it depends on which side you are on. It seems that many are offended that this was determined by a voting system, in which case the "yes" votes outnumbered the "No" votes. This is the way it is done. If some need reminding, just think back on this last election. There were many that were upset that Obama received the votes in both the electoral and popular he needed to win the majority. In life, some will win, some will lose, and some are born to sing the blues.
Quoting candlegal:

yes it does, some of us find it morally repugnant that they had to stop praying because of one person.

Quoting KamWorthy:

It all depends on what side you're on I guess. ;)
Quoting LoveMyBoyK:

It is morally repugnant to turn an all inclusive moment of silence into a majority rules exclusive prayer session, especially at a government meeting.


Quoting KamWorthy:

Eh, no, of course not lol... apparently according to the Miami-Dade Board of county Commissioners this is not forced prayer. This is one of those instances where you and others may not like the outcome, but the votes have spoken. Just like in this last political election. The people voted into law what they wanted. It is what it is.


Quoting Raintree:


Quoting KamWorthy:

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in freedom of expression at all". -Noam Chomsky

Are you thinking that old Noam thinks that coerced, governmental prayer is 'freedom of expression'?



Oh, I see.

You don't understand.

A non-Christian was replaced with a Christian, then they voted.

Also, some things shouldn't be voted on, and praying at a governmental meeting should be one of those things.


tweety101149
by Platinum Member on Dec. 13, 2012 at 2:17 PM


Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting tweety101149:

 

Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting tweety101149:

 

Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting LilyofPhilly:

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Matthew 6:6.


Interesting.  While we are to not pray openly in vain, we are in fact called to pray for and with one another. 

As much as you and others want Christians to check their faith at the doors of their home and church, we have a RIGHT to practice our religion freely and openly and a core practice for Christians is prayer. 


Oh..here it comes,  to disagree with you and you cry persecution.  No one is denying your right to practice your religion, to lead prayer before the government meeting starts, is over-stepping the bounds of religion into government.    I am quite sure Christians would not like it if another religion decided to lead the  government meeting under another religion's prayer.

It seems many people have no understanding of what is allowed and what is not allowed.  To start the opening prayer is to be a general pray, not one to condemn or convert.  I think someone a few pages back gave an example of a pagan opening prayer.  So it's likely a person would not know the specific religious or non-religious belief of the person giving the opening prayer.    


You are still steppin on the rights of non believers, why should they have ANY prayer forced upon them.  If prayer is that necessary in order to conduct a meeting meet before the meeting starts with those of like minds say your prayer and go into the meeting room and have your meeting.  May the good will of your prayers follow you.

Can you site what rights of non-believers are you referring to? 

http://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/14015-prayers-at-government-meetings

The idea that one religion feels their prayers are mor important than other people is most disturbing.  Like I said earlier if you feel the need for prayer have your little group all join hands and pray BEFORE YOU ENTER THE MEETING.  Take he good feeling of grace and compassion with into the chambers and show how your religion works.  Instead of ramming it down the throats of members of the meeting tha want nothing to do with said religion.  We (the USA is not a Christian Nation,) are a diverse nation wih many beliefs and non beliefs, and therefore prayers do not belong in government, school, or public meetings.  

butterfly on headlynda  




pansyprincess
by Silver Member on Dec. 13, 2012 at 2:19 PM

People think this is something to be proud of??  No wonder our country is going down the shitter.

12hellokitty
by Platinum Member on Dec. 13, 2012 at 2:51 PM


Quoting tweety101149:

 

Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting tweety101149:

 

Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting tweety101149:

 

Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting LilyofPhilly:

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Matthew 6:6.


Interesting.  While we are to not pray openly in vain, we are in fact called to pray for and with one another. 

As much as you and others want Christians to check their faith at the doors of their home and church, we have a RIGHT to practice our religion freely and openly and a core practice for Christians is prayer. 


Oh..here it comes,  to disagree with you and you cry persecution.  No one is denying your right to practice your religion, to lead prayer before the government meeting starts, is over-stepping the bounds of religion into government.    I am quite sure Christians would not like it if another religion decided to lead the  government meeting under another religion's prayer.

It seems many people have no understanding of what is allowed and what is not allowed.  To start the opening prayer is to be a general pray, not one to condemn or convert.  I think someone a few pages back gave an example of a pagan opening prayer.  So it's likely a person would not know the specific religious or non-religious belief of the person giving the opening prayer.    


You are still steppin on the rights of non believers, why should they have ANY prayer forced upon them.  If prayer is that necessary in order to conduct a meeting meet before the meeting starts with those of like minds say your prayer and go into the meeting room and have your meeting.  May the good will of your prayers follow you.

Can you site what rights of non-believers are you referring to? 

http://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/14015-prayers-at-government-meetings

The idea that one religion feels their prayers are mor important than other people is most disturbing.  Like I said earlier if you feel the need for prayer have your little group all join hands and pray BEFORE YOU ENTER THE MEETING.  Take he good feeling of grace and compassion with into the chambers and show how your religion works.  Instead of ramming it down the throats of members of the meeting tha want nothing to do with said religion.  We (the USA is not a Christian Nation,) are a diverse nation wih many beliefs and non beliefs, and therefore prayers do not belong in government, school, or public meetings.  

From your link

While the U.S. Supreme Court issued an unhelpful decision about prayer at the state legislative level in the 1980s (see detailed analysis below), you can still complain when you encounter government prayer. Just because the Supreme Court carved out a narrow exception for some legislative prayer does not mean legislatures must schedule prayer. They are free to set their own rules, to embrace secularism and to be responsive to citizen complaint and the need to avoid excluding constituents.

 

Also from the same site

Welcome to the Freedom from Religion Foundation

The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion. In modern times the first to speak out for prison reform, for humane treatment of the mentally ill, for abolition of capital punishment, for women's right to vote, for death with dignity for the terminally ill, and for the right to choose contraception, sterilization and abortion have been freethinkers, just as they were the first to call for an end to slavery. The Foundation works as an umbrella for those who are free from religion and are committed to the cherished principle of separation of state and church.

 

Sounds like this organization feels they have a right to freely express their beliefs on issues of morality in a government setting solely because they identify as non-religious.  While a person who identifies as a part of a religion is not free to express their moral beliefs solely because they identify as religious. 

And seriously what's with atheists hiding behind "freethinkers"?  Are they ashamed or embarrassed to identify as atheist?  

tweety101149
by Platinum Member on Dec. 13, 2012 at 3:39 PM


Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting tweety101149:

 

Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting tweety101149:

 

Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting tweety101149:

 

Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting LilyofPhilly:

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Matthew 6:6.


Interesting.  While we are to not pray openly in vain, we are in fact called to pray for and with one another. 

As much as you and others want Christians to check their faith at the doors of their home and church, we have a RIGHT to practice our religion freely and openly and a core practice for Christians is prayer. 


Oh..here it comes,  to disagree with you and you cry persecution.  No one is denying your right to practice your religion, to lead prayer before the government meeting starts, is over-stepping the bounds of religion into government.    I am quite sure Christians would not like it if another religion decided to lead the  government meeting under another religion's prayer.

It seems many people have no understanding of what is allowed and what is not allowed.  To start the opening prayer is to be a general pray, not one to condemn or convert.  I think someone a few pages back gave an example of a pagan opening prayer.  So it's likely a person would not know the specific religious or non-religious belief of the person giving the opening prayer.    


You are still steppin on the rights of non believers, why should they have ANY prayer forced upon them.  If prayer is that necessary in order to conduct a meeting meet before the meeting starts with those of like minds say your prayer and go into the meeting room and have your meeting.  May the good will of your prayers follow you.

Can you site what rights of non-believers are you referring to? 

http://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/14015-prayers-at-government-meetings

The idea that one religion feels their prayers are mor important than other people is most disturbing.  Like I said earlier if you feel the need for prayer have your little group all join hands and pray BEFORE YOU ENTER THE MEETING.  Take he good feeling of grace and compassion with into the chambers and show how your religion works.  Instead of ramming it down the throats of members of the meeting tha want nothing to do with said religion.  We (the USA is not a Christian Nation,) are a diverse nation wih many beliefs and non beliefs, and therefore prayers do not belong in government, school, or public meetings.  

From your link

While the U.S. Supreme Court issued an unhelpful decision about prayer at the state legislative level in the 1980s (see detailed analysis below), you can still complain when you encounter government prayer. Just because the Supreme Court carved out a narrow exception for some legislative prayer does not mean legislatures must schedule prayer. They are free to set their own rules, to embrace secularism and to be responsive to citizen complaint and the need to avoid excluding constituents.

 

Also from the same site

Welcome to the Freedom from Religion Foundation

The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion. In modern times the first to speak out for prison reform, for humane treatment of the mentally ill, for abolition of capital punishment, for women's right to vote, for death with dignity for the terminally ill, and for the right to choose contraception, sterilization and abortion have been freethinkers, just as they were the first to call for an end to slavery. The Foundation works as an umbrella for those who are free from religion and are committed to the cherished principle of separation of state and church.

 

Sounds like this organization feels they have a right to freely express their beliefs on issues of morality in a government setting solely because they identify as non-religious.  While a person who identifies as a part of a religion is not free to express their moral beliefs solely because they identify as religious. 

And seriously what's with atheists hiding behind "freethinkers"?  Are they ashamed or embarrassed to identify as atheist?  

Nobody is embarrassed or ashamed to be atheist, or freethinkers, or identified as a minority religion.  I believe many may be intimidated or fearful of harrassment by over-zealous Christians who insist on "spreading the good word" to a point of persecuting those that don't believe as Christians do.  This is why many do or say nothing.  The SCOTUS is taking the low road out of town by not hearing these cases.  They are forcing Jesus in my ears everytime a public meeting is held or government meeting is held.  Last time I checked this country is a republic..., not a theocracy.  This country is not  a Christian Nation,  It was founded on  humanistic laws.   

It seems to me as long as we play by Christian rules, and don't make waves at public gatherings, in private we can believe as want.   What next we non Christians live as Marranos.

butterfly on headlynda  




KamWorthy
by Silver Member on Dec. 13, 2012 at 4:30 PM
Some seem to forget that the individual in question was replaced not because they were not Christian, but because they were a hostile board member. ;)
KamWorthy
by Silver Member on Dec. 13, 2012 at 4:40 PM
According to the article, the "child" on the playground who was supposedly being excluded, was a hostile little stinker, which is a horrible way to behave just because you aren't getting your way. This is why the "child" was replaced, and voting commenced.
Quoting LoveMyBoyK:

Not really. But I am not shocked you would think so. Excluding all but one is something most learn on the playground is a horrible way to behave. Unfortunately, some Christians never learned that lesson.


ETA: was meant for Kam
Quoting candlegal:

yes it does, some of us find it morally repugnant that they had to stop praying because of one person.

Quoting KamWorthy:

It all depends on what side you're on I guess. ;)

Quoting LoveMyBoyK:

It is morally repugnant to turn an all inclusive moment of silence into a majority rules exclusive prayer session, especially at a government meeting.





Quoting KamWorthy:

Eh, no, of course not lol... apparently according to the Miami-Dade Board of county Commissioners this is not forced prayer. This is one of those instances where you and others may not like the outcome, but the votes have spoken. Just like in this last political election. The people voted into law what they wanted. It is what it is.





Quoting Raintree:


Quoting KamWorthy:

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in freedom of expression at all". -Noam Chomsky

Are you thinking that old Noam thinks that coerced, governmental prayer is 'freedom of expression'?






LoveMyBoyK
by Ruby Member on Dec. 14, 2012 at 12:04 AM
You apparently have additional info - care to share your source? Because the article offers NO evidence of hostility on the removed member's part aside from a one word description by a group notorious for believing any disagreement with them constitutes "hostility".

Quoting KamWorthy:

According to the article, the "child" on the playground who was supposedly being excluded, was a hostile little stinker, which is a horrible way to behave just because you aren't getting your way. This is why the "child" was replaced, and voting commenced.


Quoting LoveMyBoyK:

Not really. But I am not shocked you would think so. Excluding all but one is something most learn on the playground is a horrible way to behave. Unfortunately, some Christians never learned that lesson.




ETA: was meant for Kam

Quoting candlegal:

yes it does, some of us find it morally repugnant that they had to stop praying because of one person.

Quoting KamWorthy:

It all depends on what side you're on I guess. ;)

Quoting LoveMyBoyK:

It is morally repugnant to turn an all inclusive moment of silence into a majority rules exclusive prayer session, especially at a government meeting.





Quoting KamWorthy:

Eh, no, of course not lol... apparently according to the Miami-Dade Board of county Commissioners this is not forced prayer. This is one of those instances where you and others may not like the outcome, but the votes have spoken. Just like in this last political election. The people voted into law what they wanted. It is what it is.





Quoting Raintree:


Quoting KamWorthy:

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in freedom of expression at all". -Noam Chomsky

Are you thinking that old Noam thinks that coerced, governmental prayer is 'freedom of expression'?









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