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Same-Sex Marriage And Adoption: Unresolved Issues In France

Posted by on Dec. 29, 2012 at 4:43 PM
  • 76 Replies

Same-Sex Marriage And Adoption: Unresolved Issues In France

A man wears a costume reading "Dad" and "Mom" during a demonstration against gay marriage and adoption by same-sex couples in Nice, France, in October.

Valery Hache /AFP/Getty Images

France is known as a tolerant country on many social issues, yet the country is embroiled in a debate about same-sex marriage and adoption.

President Francois Hollande is following through on a campaign promise to bring full rights to gay couples. France legalized civil unions more than a decade ago, though same-sex couples must still go abroad to marry or adopt.

But opposition to Hollande's measure has been unexpectedly fierce, something the Socialist government wasn't expecting.

Thousands of supporters of same-sex marriage took to the streets in Paris last weekend in support of the government's plans to legalize marriage and adoption for gay couples.

But they were playing catch-up.

In October and November, groups opposed to same-sex marriage staged several large demonstrations across France, attracting tens of thousands of people. The new measure has highlighted the divide between urban and rural France.

Treading Carefully Around Religion

People hold placards reading and support of legalizing marriage and adoption for gay couples, during a demonstration in Paris on Dec. 16.

Lionel Bonaventure /AFP/Getty Images

But rarely do demonstrators wave signs with Bible verses.

It's not about religion, at least not on the surface, says Gilles Wullus editor-in-chief of Tetu, a magazine for homosexuals.

"There is a kind of taboo in France for using religion in the political debate. There is a strong tradition of avoiding religious arguments in politics. That's French history," says Wullus. "So even for the conservatives it's very delicate to use religious beliefs. But that doesn't mean that religion is out of the mind[s] of these people."

In a rare move, and to the surprise of many, the French Catholic Church has become involved in the debate. Since the separation of church and state in France more than a century ago, the church rarely injects itself into political and societal matters.

But this time the archbishop of Paris, Monsignor Andre Vingt-Trois, spoke out on TV and radio, saying that society was threatened by such changes in the family structure. Many believe the Vatican is behind the church's rare outspokenness because France is a large and strategic Catholic country.

Other European Catholic countries, like Belgium and Spain, have already legalized gay marriage and adoption. Analysts say one reason France has not is that it was the first to adopt civil unions for same-sex couples in 1999.

A Debate About Parenting

Opposition to the new measure seems mainly centered around children.

Parisian Eric Robichon voices a commonly heard viewpoint: "I think gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples, like in matters of inheritance. After all, they pay taxes too. But I draw the line there. I think a child needs a father and a mother, and this could open a Pandora's box."

Wullus says the declining status of marriage is another reason the opposition is focused on children.

"Marriage is not a big institution in France. Most couples aren't married," Wullus says. "They have pacts, civil union or nothing. Unlike the U.S., marriage is not very well considered here, except in the bourgeois families."

The absence of a religious tone to the French protests seems strange to someone used to the Bible-centric, American opposition to gay marriage.

Recently in the city of Lyon, hundreds of people acted out a scene with a person dressed in a butterfly suit, with one wing that said "papa," and the other "maman."

As the newly hatched butterfly staggered to walk and stretch its wings, hundreds of men and women seated on the sidewalk on different sides of the creature reached out to prop him up, alternately screaming, "Mama! Papa!"

The message was clear — a child needs both parents to fully develop. But the scene was more than just bizarre.

The French government has been caught off guard by the strength of the opposition. After an outcry from a group of rural mayors who said they didn't want to marry same-sex couples, Hollande said they could call in their deputies to do it.

Hollande had to backtrack amid an uproar over whether people would now be able to choose the laws they wished to obey.

The bill legalizing gay marriage and adoption will go before parliament this spring. There is likely to be a contentious debate over whether it will include the right to assisted reproduction.

With or without this component, the law is set to be promulgated by June just ahead of Paris' annual gay pride parade.

Naughty Wittle Puppy

by on Dec. 29, 2012 at 4:43 PM
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Replies (1-10):
darlingdaisy
by on Dec. 29, 2012 at 4:55 PM


 

Quote:

 Parisian Eric Robichon voices a commonly heard viewpoint: "I think gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples, like in matters of inheritance. After all, they pay taxes too. But I draw the line there. I think a child needs a father and a mother, and this could open a Pandora's box."


I agree with this statement.  Kids need a mom and dad.

jaxTheMomm
by Platinum Member on Dec. 29, 2012 at 5:02 PM
7 moms liked this

Kids need a family that provides support, discipline and love in order to thrive.  That can take many forms; it doesn't have to be a mom and a dad. 

Ask any divorced mom with lots of friends and family who's managed to raise successful adults.

Quoting darlingdaisy:


 

Quote:

 Parisian Eric Robichon voices a commonly heard viewpoint: "I think gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples, like in matters of inheritance. After all, they pay taxes too. But I draw the line there. I think a child needs a father and a mother, and this could open a Pandora's box."


I agree with this statement.  Kids need a mom and dad.


NWP
by guerrilla girl on Dec. 29, 2012 at 5:06 PM

There is a kind of taboo in France for using religion in the political debate. There is a strong tradition of avoiding religious arguments in politics. That's French history," says Wullus. "So even for the conservatives it's very delicate to use religious beliefs. But that doesn't mean that religion is out of the mind[s] of these people."

In a rare move, and to the surprise of many, the French Catholic Church has become involved in the debate. Since the separation of church and state in France more than a century ago, the church rarely injects itself into political and societal matters.

darlingdaisy
by on Dec. 29, 2012 at 5:07 PM

 Even parents with parents who are divorce, the child still needs a mom and dad.  A divorce is for the parents, dads don't divorce the kids, it still his child.

Children need both male and female parents, imo.

 

Quoting jaxTheMomm:

Kids need a family that provides support, discipline and love in order to thrive.  That can take many forms; it doesn't have to be a mom and a dad. 

Ask any divorced mom with lots of friends and family who's managed to raise successful adults.

Quoting darlingdaisy:


 

Quote:

 Parisian Eric Robichon voices a commonly heard viewpoint: "I think gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples, like in matters of inheritance. After all, they pay taxes too. But I draw the line there. I think a child needs a father and a mother, and this could open a Pandora's box."


I agree with this statement.  Kids need a mom and dad.

 

 

LoveMyBoyK
by Ruby Member on Dec. 29, 2012 at 5:10 PM
4 moms liked this
NO, kids need both male and female rolemodels and influences who are Involved with them. The easiest way to achieve that is to have Mom and Dad but it is NOT the ONLY way.


Quoting darlingdaisy:

 Even parents with parents who are divorce, the child still needs a mom and dad.  A divorce is for the parents, dads don't divorce the kids, it still his child.


Children need both male and female parents, imo.


 


Quoting jaxTheMomm:


Kids need a family that provides support, discipline and love in order to thrive.  That can take many forms; it doesn't have to be a mom and a dad. 


Ask any divorced mom with lots of friends and family who's managed to raise successful adults.


Quoting darlingdaisy:



 


Quote:


 Parisian Eric Robichon voices a commonly heard viewpoint: "I think gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples, like in matters of inheritance. After all, they pay taxes too. But I draw the line there. I think a child needs a father and a mother, and this could open a Pandora's box."



I agree with this statement.  Kids need a mom and dad.


 


 


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NWP
by guerrilla girl on Dec. 29, 2012 at 5:12 PM
4 moms liked this

By your argument, widows and widowers should not be allowed to keep their children.

Quoting darlingdaisy:

 Even parents with parents who are divorce, the child still needs a mom and dad.  A divorce is for the parents, dads don't divorce the kids, it still his child.

Children need both male and female parents, imo.

 

Quoting jaxTheMomm:

Kids need a family that provides support, discipline and love in order to thrive.  That can take many forms; it doesn't have to be a mom and a dad. 

Ask any divorced mom with lots of friends and family who's managed to raise successful adults.

Quoting darlingdaisy:


 

Quote:

 Parisian Eric Robichon voices a commonly heard viewpoint: "I think gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples, like in matters of inheritance. After all, they pay taxes too. But I draw the line there. I think a child needs a father and a mother, and this could open a Pandora's box."


I agree with this statement.  Kids need a mom and dad.


 


Naughty Wittle Puppy

jaxTheMomm
by Platinum Member on Dec. 29, 2012 at 5:13 PM

Divorce doesn't make a mom or a dad a good mom or a dad, anymore than marriage does.

Now ask any divorced parent who's pretty much raising their child with little or not involvement from their former spouse.  Ask any kid who's been raised by a divorced mom and dad who can't be in the same room or even state together.

Ask any kid that's been raised by two awful, married people.

(sorry, I'll stop with the "ask any" statements now.)

What I'm getting at is that the idea that every married or divorced couple consists of a happy, well functioning mom and dad fully able to raise their kids and co parent together is a myth.

Anyone who's managed to do it well without the other half of the equation will tell you it takes a LOT, including a support system of people who love that child and let that child know they are worth the effort.

In the end, that's what kids know.  Who loves them, who made the time, and who didn't.  Once you watch your 6 year old sit on the sofa with a bag of toys for Daddy's day, and daddy never shows up but grandpa or your brother or your best friend is waiting there in the wings to redeem the day, you learn that.

Your kids learn that too - when people love you they show you. 

Quoting darlingdaisy:

 Even parents with parents who are divorce, the child still needs a mom and dad.  A divorce is for the parents, dads don't divorce the kids, it still his child.

Children need both male and female parents, imo.

 

Quoting jaxTheMomm:

Kids need a family that provides support, discipline and love in order to thrive.  That can take many forms; it doesn't have to be a mom and a dad. 

Ask any divorced mom with lots of friends and family who's managed to raise successful adults.

Quoting darlingdaisy:


 

Quote:

 Parisian Eric Robichon voices a commonly heard viewpoint: "I think gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples, like in matters of inheritance. After all, they pay taxes too. But I draw the line there. I think a child needs a father and a mother, and this could open a Pandora's box."


I agree with this statement.  Kids need a mom and dad.


 


sweet-a-kins
by Emerald Member on Dec. 29, 2012 at 5:15 PM
No they don't



Quoting darlingdaisy:

 Even parents with parents who are divorce, the child still needs a mom and dad.  A divorce is for the parents, dads don't divorce the kids, it still his child.


Children need both male and female parents, imo.


 


Quoting jaxTheMomm:


Kids need a family that provides support, discipline and love in order to thrive.  That can take many forms; it doesn't have to be a mom and a dad. 


Ask any divorced mom with lots of friends and family who's managed to raise successful adults.


Quoting darlingdaisy:



 


Quote:


 Parisian Eric Robichon voices a commonly heard viewpoint: "I think gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples, like in matters of inheritance. After all, they pay taxes too. But I draw the line there. I think a child needs a father and a mother, and this could open a Pandora's box."



I agree with this statement.  Kids need a mom and dad.


 


 

Posted on CafeMom Mobile
darlingdaisy
by on Dec. 29, 2012 at 5:15 PM

 That is a very slim segment of parents. 

IMO, it is in the child who is up for adoptions best interests to have a mom and dad.

Quoting NWP:

By your argument, widows and widowers should not be allowed to keep their children.

Quoting darlingdaisy:

 Even parents with parents who are divorce, the child still needs a mom and dad.  A divorce is for the parents, dads don't divorce the kids, it still his child.

Children need both male and female parents, imo.

 

Quoting jaxTheMomm:

Kids need a family that provides support, discipline and love in order to thrive.  That can take many forms; it doesn't have to be a mom and a dad. 

Ask any divorced mom with lots of friends and family who's managed to raise successful adults.

Quoting darlingdaisy:


 

Quote:

 Parisian Eric Robichon voices a commonly heard viewpoint: "I think gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples, like in matters of inheritance. After all, they pay taxes too. But I draw the line there. I think a child needs a father and a mother, and this could open a Pandora's box."


I agree with this statement.  Kids need a mom and dad.

 

 


 

LoveMyBoyK
by Ruby Member on Dec. 29, 2012 at 5:17 PM
Exactly!! We would not, as a society, even dream of suggesting Kids who lose a parent be removed from the sole surviving parent and put with a "traditional" family.


Quoting NWP:

By your argument, widows and widowers should not be allowed to keep their children.

Quoting darlingdaisy:

 Even parents with parents who are divorce, the child still needs a mom and dad.  A divorce is for the parents, dads don't divorce the kids, it still his child.


Children need both male and female parents, imo.


 


Quoting jaxTheMomm:


Kids need a family that provides support, discipline and love in order to thrive.  That can take many forms; it doesn't have to be a mom and a dad. 


Ask any divorced mom with lots of friends and family who's managed to raise successful adults.


Quoting darlingdaisy:



 


Quote:


 Parisian Eric Robichon voices a commonly heard viewpoint: "I think gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples, like in matters of inheritance. After all, they pay taxes too. But I draw the line there. I think a child needs a father and a mother, and this could open a Pandora's box."



I agree with this statement.  Kids need a mom and dad.




 



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