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Oregon Bakery Says No to Same Sex Wedding Cake

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Oregon bakery refuses to make same-sex wedding cake

'I believe that marriage is a religious institution ordained by God,' owner says


By 
KGW-TV
updated 2/2/2013 5:53:52 PM ET

GRESHAM, Ore. — The Oregon Department of Justice is looking into a complaint that a Gresham bakery refused to make a wedding cake for a same sex marriage.

It started on Jan. 17 when a mother and daughter showed up at Sweet Cakes by Melissa looking for the perfect wedding cake.

"My first question is what's the wedding date," said owner Aaron Klein. "My next question is bride and groom's name ... the girl giggled a little bit and said it's two brides."

Klein apologized to the women and told them he and his wife do not make cakes for same-sex marriages. Klein said the women were disgusted and walked out.

"I believe that marriage is a religious institution ordained by God," said Klein. "A man should leave his mother and father and cling to his wife ... that to me is the beginning of marriage."

At the advice of their attorney, the women are not speaking to the media, but they have plenty of support. Numerous people have blasted the Klein's on the internet.

What Klein wants to make clear is that he and his wife do not hate homosexuals.

"They can buy my stuff," said Klein. "I'll sell them stuff ... I'll talk to them, it's fine."

What is not fine, according to Klein, is a marriage between people of the same sex. He will always stand by that conviction.

"I'd rather have my kids see their dad stand up for what he believes in then to see him bow down because one person complained."

ORS 659A.403 is the law in question. In short, it prohibits discrimination in places of public accommodation. Klein and his wife have two weeks to respond to the Oregon Department of Justice's inquiry into what happened


http://www.nbcnews.com/id/50679304/ns/us_news-life/?ocid=msnhp&pos=5#.UQ4LTieCmPU

by on Feb. 3, 2013 at 2:04 AM
Replies (461-470):
Imacakebaker
by on Feb. 4, 2013 at 4:07 PM

 And that is why I am against gay marriage.  Nothing like having it shoved down our throats.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

 

Because offering a service to everyone and then looking at a homosexual and saying, "No you. We don't offer service to people like you" is discrimination.

Just because he interprets the bible to allow discrimination doesn't mean he should be allowed to discriminate.

Quoting Imacakebaker:

 Its his "art" his "creation" a wedding cake is a big part of a wedding.  Why should he have to contribute or else?

Quoting brookiecookie87:

 

Wait-They were asking him to marry another man? I thought they were just asking him for a cake?

Quoting Imacakebaker:

 It is forcing someone to participate in something they are religiously opposed to.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Because one is discrimination against a group of people.

The other is something else entirely. He should not have the right to discriminate against a group of people.

Now if they were asking for a penis/boob cake he would have grounds to refuse service. But they were looking for a wedding cake like any other wedding cake. And he choose to descriminate against them by denying them a service he would offer any other person.

Quoting Imacakebaker:

 Why should I have to spend time doing a cake for a gay couple if I am opposed or penis or boob cakes?  I have better things to do. 

The man should have been able to say NO.  I am opposed to same sex marriage and I don't want to participate in anyway.

Quoting brookiecookie87:

 

Well at least you hide your discrimination. That should be enough to keep you from being on the next article like this. I imagine if this man did the same he would not be in this position.

Quoting Imacakebaker:

 I ask first what they want, and then when they want it. If I don't want to do it, I can't fit it into my schedule.

Quoting TranquilMind:

 Good for you.  But you might have to watch it if you are targeted, depending on your state law.  You might not be able to stand by your convictions; they won't let you.  Tolerance only goes one way, don't ya know?

 

Quoting Imacakebaker:

 I bake cakes for special occasions.  My schedule is full for the next six months.  I will not do same sex weddings, pornographic things, or anything else I don't want to do.  It has never hurt my business.  I did four wedding cakes, and two birthday cakes this weekend alone.  I can afford to say no.

They can find someone else to make their cake.

Quoting TranquilMind:

 Or he will gain business, as did a bakery in Colorado.  The owner said he would sell any sort of cake to anyone at all, except for wedding cakes to memorialize something that is not marriage, scripturally.   He gained business for abiding by his principles. 

There are a thousand other bakeries that will make cakes.  Pick one of them. I never understand these sorts of stupid arguments.  Do you want to force someone to do artistic work against his will?  It won't be very good.  The same sorts of cases have arisen with photographers who have been sued because they don't want to do gay "weddings".  Find someone who WANTS the business and go there.  Use common sense.  If someone didn't want to marry my intended spouse and myself, I would just go elsewhere. 

 

Quoting Luv.My.Kidz:

He's going to be losing a shit load of business!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Radarma
by "OneDar" on Feb. 4, 2013 at 4:09 PM
Granted, I have not read all the responses, I am curious: what about a proprietor's right to refuse service? How/where does that weigh in?
wowguildmomma
by Member on Feb. 4, 2013 at 4:13 PM

however the law is letting them discriminate against him. So it is OK for them to infringe on his rights but not him? Why? 

I am just trying to figure out why it is ok to discriminate against this guy for his beliefs but he isn't allowed to do the same? Because a law says so?

Just because a law says something is right or wrong doesn't make it so. Look at the multitude of laws we have that govern the rights or lack of rights to our bodies, the laws that non-christians try to pass that would govern the rights or lack thereof to express or not your religious stance. Man the list goes on about laws that either restrict the rights we have in the bill of rights or take them away completely. 

Religious, Value, and belief based rights and what constitutes discrimination or said rights varies person to person, therefore shouldn't be subject to legal enforcement. 


In regards to your statement about discrimination. When you say they have a right to discriminate against this guy and thru him any other baker that would refuse service for similar reasons you are indeed condoning discrimination


edited for spelling issues.

Quoting brookiecookie87:


The law is NOT wrong to strip away the right for someone to discriminate.

Discrimination is NOT the norm and SHOULDN"T be condoned.

Them having the ability to marry is NOT the same as him discriminating against them by denying them service that someone else would get.

Those are in no way the same thing.

If his belief was, "Don't make cakes"  Then he would be perfectly fine in practicing that belief. But if his belief is, "Make cakes for Group A, but don't make cakes for Group B"-Then he is discriminating against group b.

Making a cake isn't against his belief. Which is what they were asking him to do. He owns a bakery and makes wedding cakes. So everything they asked him to do goes perfectly fine with his belief. His choice to refuse them service is discrimination.

Just so you know they are not taking him to court over a cake. They are taking him to court over discrimination.

Quoting wowguildmomma:

but discrimination is discrimination regardless of the how or why. I am not saying that it is right but that they both have rights to do so and that the law is wrong to strip a party of that right.

Anytime we choose to do something based on beliefs, values or way of life we are being discriminatory against others even if it isn't our intent. Be it a personal choice of where to shop or business based one to refuse service if the result forces the opposite party to act in a way contrary to thier beliefs or right then they are discriminating. 

Yes he didn't want to do a cake based on what his personal morals, he has that right. 

Yes they are free to marry as they choose, they have that right. 

Do either party have the right to force the other to adjust according to their indvidual rights? No they don't. 

Forcing him to go against his beliefs is just as discriminatory as he was in denying them the cake. 

Both parties are wrong. The right thing to do would have been to accept his stance and honesty and to have gone to another bakery. Hell if he is smart he should obtain the names of some bakeries who do cakes for the couples he doesn't. It is what one of our most successful shops in my area does. If they don't offer it due to religous reasons or morals they tell you where you can get it be it a racy cake for a bachlor/bachlorette party, religious celebration, or wedding cake. We also have party planners that operate in the same fashion.


Quoting brookiecookie87:

Your first statement doesn't make any sense. No one is trying to control where you spend your money. We are talking about discriminating against a group of people by refusing them service.

Discrimination has never been limited to the essentials to survive. Who told you that?

If his belief was, "White people shouldn't serve Black people" Would you agree with him denying black people service? I hope not. But maybe you would I don't know. But either way it is discrimination.

We are not asking him to approve of black people. Excuse me back to this example. We are not asking him to approve of marriage between people of the same sex. We are not asking that he joins the wedding and celebrates with them. But she was asking to buy a cake and was refused service by him based on her sexual orientation. Which is discrimination

Quoting wowguildmomma:

So I should be forced to shop in stores that I know are based on values besides my own or it would be discriminatory of me to deny those places my money? 

Where is the line? If we were talking an event that denied them a house, basics like food needed to survive, the ability to bring in income for thier family then yes it would be discrimination as it would be denying them the ability to provide the essentials for life. However, we are talking luxury goods that can be gained from anywhere and are not life sustaining in any way.

To say that this is discrimination means that the family that was got denied a birthday cake for thier kid named after adolf hitler was wrong. Yet that baker was defended in that case for standing for what he felt was right. 

Not everyone has the same beliefs, views or ways of thinking and that is ok. But there is a difference granted it is a fine line of what is discrimination and what is standing for your beliefs. In both cases the judgment of what it is will differ from person to person.

For example me, I am a non-christian from a deeply Christian area living surrounded everyday by everytype of the religon from the open minded friends I have that don't mind that I am different to the extreme ones who would love to burn me at the stake as an example of those who choose the wrong faith, but I am not so conceited to think that just those who would refuse me service due to thier religion should be denied the right to do so. Any more than I should be denied the right to not shop at their business.  

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Because discrimination is wrong.

If a group of Christians decided that they don't want to serve Black people anymore should they be allowed to discriminate against them too?

It's not like she walked into the Bakery and said, "Will you make me a cake in the shape of boobs" or as you suggested, "Make me a cake in the shape of a pentacle".

And again because discrimination is wrong. Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom to discriminate based on religion.


Quoting wowguildmomma:

So to those that are saying that this law is right and fair. If I lived in Oregon and decided to shop in a Christian bookstore, that I would have the right to yell discrimination based on they refuse to sell me a Qu'ran, athame, spell candles or any product I needed for my non-christian faith or as gifts to my equally non-Christan friends. 

You are also saying that i could sue this same guy if he refused to make me a wedding cake that featured a Thor's Hammer, Pentacle, .

Now do you see why this law is dumb and shouldn't exist. Why should any business be forced to offer products, services, etc that are against thier values? Part of why I love privately owned and operated places are because of thier deep beliefs. I can choose not to shop at places that are openly Christian based on my beliefs so why can't they refuse me services for the same reason.

I know this way of thinking isn't popular in the day of political correctness and all the sue happy thinking but I think that it is wrong to force the world to adjust itself to my beliefs. Yes our beliefs are different but they shouldn't be forced to be ashamed to stand for what they believe any more than I should be. That is the beauty of free enterprise and freedom OF religion.










brookiecookie87
by Platinum Member on Feb. 4, 2013 at 4:17 PM

They were not asking him to make a cake in the shape of a penis, or boobs. They were not asking him to make a cake that said, "Same Sex Couple Here!". They were trying to buy a wedding cake.

He makes wedding cakes. Making wedding cakes is NOT against his belief. He makes them for a living.

So his belief tells him to discriminate against same sex couples-That is discrimination. That is why it is okay to tell him, "That is not okay. We won't allow you to do this".

Because your religious belief doesn't allow you to discriminate against people. The same way your religious belief doesn't allow you to stone people. Hang them. Enslave them. Or any other crime.

They are not asking him to ordain the wedding. To talk someone down the isle. They were not asking him to do anything he otherwise wouldn't do. Just to bake a cake.

He bakes cakes. Just not for same sex couples. Which is discrimination.

Quoting wowguildmomma:

however the law is letting them discriminate against him. So it is ok for them to infringe on his rights but not him? Why? 

I am just trying to figure out why it is ok to discriminate against this guy for his beliefs but he isn't allowed to do the same? Because a law says so?

Just because a law says something is right or wrong doesn't make it so. Look at the multitude of laws we have that govern the rights or lack of rights to our bodies, the laws that non-chirstians try to pass that would govern the rights or lack thereof to express or not your religious stance. Man the list goes on about laws that either restrict the rights we have in the bill of rights or take them away completely. 

Religous, Value, and belief based rights and what constiutes discrimination or said rights varies person to person, therefore shouldn't be subject to legal enforcement. 





Quoting brookiecookie87:


The law is NOT wrong to strip away the right for someone to discriminate.

Discrimination is NOT the norm and SHOULDN"T be condoned.

Them having the ability to marry is NOT the same as him discriminating against them by denying them service that someone else would get.

Those are in no way the same thing.

If his belief was, "Don't make cakes"  Then he would be perfectly fine in practicing that belief. But if his belief is, "Make cakes for Group A, but don't make cakes for Group B"-Then he is discriminating against group b.

Making a cake isn't against his belief. Which is what they were asking him to do. He owns a bakery and makes wedding cakes. So everything they asked him to do goes perfectly fine with his belief. His choice to refuse them service is discrimination.

Just so you know they are not taking him to court over a cake. They are taking him to court over discrimination.

Quoting wowguildmomma:

but discrimination is discrimination regardless of the how or why. I am not saying that it is right but that they both have rights to do so and that the law is wrong to strip a party of that right.

Anytime we choose to do something based on beliefs, values or way of life we are being discriminatory against others even if it isn't our intent. Be it a personal choice of where to shop or business based one to refuse service if the result forces the opposite party to act in a way contrary to thier beliefs or right then they are discriminating. 

Yes he didn't want to do a cake based on what his personal morals, he has that right. 

Yes they are free to marry as they choose, they have that right. 

Do either party have the right to force the other to adjust according to their indvidual rights? No they don't. 

Forcing him to go against his beliefs is just as discriminatory as he was in denying them the cake. 

Both parties are wrong. The right thing to do would have been to accept his stance and honesty and to have gone to another bakery. Hell if he is smart he should obtain the names of some bakeries who do cakes for the couples he doesn't. It is what one of our most successful shops in my area does. If they don't offer it due to religous reasons or morals they tell you where you can get it be it a racy cake for a bachlor/bachlorette party, religious celebration, or wedding cake. We also have party planners that operate in the same fashion.


Quoting brookiecookie87:

Your first statement doesn't make any sense. No one is trying to control where you spend your money. We are talking about discriminating against a group of people by refusing them service.

Discrimination has never been limited to the essentials to survive. Who told you that?

If his belief was, "White people shouldn't serve Black people" Would you agree with him denying black people service? I hope not. But maybe you would I don't know. But either way it is discrimination.

We are not asking him to approve of black people. Excuse me back to this example. We are not asking him to approve of marriage between people of the same sex. We are not asking that he joins the wedding and celebrates with them. But she was asking to buy a cake and was refused service by him based on her sexual orientation. Which is discrimination

Quoting wowguildmomma:

So I should be forced to shop in stores that I know are based on values besides my own or it would be discriminatory of me to deny those places my money? 

Where is the line? If we were talking an event that denied them a house, basics like food needed to survive, the ability to bring in income for thier family then yes it would be discrimination as it would be denying them the ability to provide the essentials for life. However, we are talking luxury goods that can be gained from anywhere and are not life sustaining in any way.

To say that this is discrimination means that the family that was got denied a birthday cake for thier kid named after adolf hitler was wrong. Yet that baker was defended in that case for standing for what he felt was right. 

Not everyone has the same beliefs, views or ways of thinking and that is ok. But there is a difference granted it is a fine line of what is discrimination and what is standing for your beliefs. In both cases the judgment of what it is will differ from person to person.

For example me, I am a non-christian from a deeply Christian area living surrounded everyday by everytype of the religon from the open minded friends I have that don't mind that I am different to the extreme ones who would love to burn me at the stake as an example of those who choose the wrong faith, but I am not so conceited to think that just those who would refuse me service due to thier religion should be denied the right to do so. Any more than I should be denied the right to not shop at their business.  

Quoting brookiecookie87:

Because discrimination is wrong.

If a group of Christians decided that they don't want to serve Black people anymore should they be allowed to discriminate against them too?

It's not like she walked into the Bakery and said, "Will you make me a cake in the shape of boobs" or as you suggested, "Make me a cake in the shape of a pentacle".

And again because discrimination is wrong. Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom to discriminate based on religion.


Quoting wowguildmomma:

So to those that are saying that this law is right and fair. If I lived in Oregon and decided to shop in a Christian bookstore, that I would have the right to yell discrimination based on they refuse to sell me a Qu'ran, athame, spell candles or any product I needed for my non-christian faith or as gifts to my equally non-Christan friends. 

You are also saying that i could sue this same guy if he refused to make me a wedding cake that featured a Thor's Hammer, Pentacle, .

Now do you see why this law is dumb and shouldn't exist. Why should any business be forced to offer products, services, etc that are against thier values? Part of why I love privately owned and operated places are because of thier deep beliefs. I can choose not to shop at places that are openly Christian based on my beliefs so why can't they refuse me services for the same reason.

I know this way of thinking isn't popular in the day of political correctness and all the sue happy thinking but I think that it is wrong to force the world to adjust itself to my beliefs. Yes our beliefs are different but they shouldn't be forced to be ashamed to stand for what they believe any more than I should be. That is the beauty of free enterprise and freedom OF religion.












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If they enforced bank regulations like they do park rules, we wouldn't be in this mess

Bookwormy
by Platinum Member on Feb. 4, 2013 at 5:28 PM
The law exists for a reason. You don't like it, don't live or do business in Oregon, simple as that. The couple was not obligated to look at the store's website ahead of time.

No, I wouldn't have shopped there, but that doesn't mean they have the right to violate non-discrimination laws. You don't get to discriminate based on religion, sorry. Move to a theocracy if you want to do that.


Quoting DonnaPinitonya:

If he is going against advice of his legal council or if they haven't told him not to talk that is fine- the women not speaking is fine. The time to file a complaint on their part started the mess.

Under the umbrella of Christian are many variations like ELCA and LCMS, Mormon... and under all of those are different church structures. Older ones, based strongly off Catholic are very strong on marriage being for a man and a women while others that have come about later in the history of the church are not. Obviously he is very much the earlier.

And cake is not vital, he didn't take their money and then refuse and he didn't sit there with them for hours tasting and wasting there time. Seriously, they would be just as mad if he made a cake and they found out later he is against same sex marriage. 

The court is screwed no matter what- if they force him to pay fines or anything else that is religious discrimaination. It's not like he decided to just make up that he belived it. It's very obvious before hand. 


All people need to think before they act. 1, they should not of shopped a bakery that has such a strong Christian base and 2, he could of just said he was booked for the day they needed. But at the same time, wouldn't you be more upset some one lied to you than simply said I'm sorry but I don't support you? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Quoting Bookwormy:

He spoke out, so he is throwing a public fit IMO, talking to FOX & the like. They aren't talking, as advised by legal counsel. The AG is supposed to prosecute discrimination cases - that's their job. Many GLBT are Christian as it is a super-majority faith. Most US citizens, when polled, support SSM & most are Christian, go figure! We don't know that they looked at the website. You're ASSuming. The law covers all private businesses that serve the public, that includes bakeries. He can try, but thay aren't discriminating because they simply tried to shop at his business. I don't know that town. It isn't Portland. Maybe Sweet Cakes is the best or only bakery in town. I haven't a clue. I'm not Christian so I probably wouldn't have ordered either our wedding cake or our butch's cake from them for our illegal JudeoPagan lesbian wedding, since I looked at websites. But I'm not them! Once he refused they aren't getting their cake there. If he loses he pays a $50K fine.



It isn't about their cake. It isn't about creating drama. Its about discrimination by businesses. This couple isnt getting the attention. This bakery is getting some. Most importantly, businesses in the state of Oregon will think twice before ever again discriminating anyone covered by thei anti-discrimination law, including GLBT. That's the point. Ending discrimination in Oregon.



Your opinion is irrelevant, as is mine. Let the court decide this matter.





Quoting DonnaPinitonya:

So based on your argument he can file a compalint back against the couple for religous discrimination. Seriously, he is not the only baker in the area so it's not like him declining is stopping them from getting a wedding cake. He respectfully declined siting his religous belief. He obviously doesn't discrimiante against the G and L community becasue he still serves them everything else. There is no sign saying no Gays/Lesbians/BiSexuals/Transgenders... His point is on why not is 100% due to his beliefs and they are throwing a public fit by complaing to the Att. Gen and getting all the attention we are all giving them. 

When it comes down to it, he is a small business and the OR Attorney Gen. has better things to spend tax payer money on than a small business who won't make a cake for some one.

Why would you want someone who doesn't support you and your SO to make your cake anyway?

They never should of even gone there, look at his website- bible verses are on it. It is very clear it is a Christian owned shop so I wouldn't be suprised if the shop itself voiced that fact. Go some where that is clearly against what you believe and this is what happens- why the drama? For cake? 




Quoting Bookwormy:

Doesn't matter that its a private business since he serves the public. Read the law & study the civil rights movement. You are not ever allowed to refuse service to a Black person based on race at a private business serving the public. If you own a private business serving the public anywhere in the US try it & see what happens.





This is ridiculous! Take history & civics! Non-discrimination laws trump private business stuff. You can't post a sign at McDonalds saying "No Blacks served here.". Come on people!








Quoting DonnaPinitonya:

Chances are it is private- I doubt the goverment pays his rent and buisness licences; owners can refuse service. If they couldn't we would not be a free country. 





Quoting Bookwormy:

Its not his home. Its a public establishment. Yes, he is trying to prove he didn't violate the law. That will be for the courts to decide.











Quoting DonnaPinitonya:


This seems to be a fine line. She walked into HIS bakery. She asked him, he refused. Is it discrimination to walk into his home, ask him and him refuse? This isn't work related. This is his belief. She should respect that enough to not throw a public fit and find a baker who will make a cake. It came off weird but I think his point that he will sell products and talk to gays was meant to show he doesn't discriminate. I honestly don't think choosing to not let someone pay you to do something is discrimination. In buisness people choose how to work, how to run their operations. This is how he is choosing to run his. 





Quoting romalove:


Quoting talia-mom:

For him, it does.   It is that simple an explanation for me.






Quoting romalove:


Quoting talia-mom:

One relationship is legally recognized in the state and the other isn't?

That is the difference I see.






Quoting romalove:


Quoting 12hellokitty:

How is he discriminating by not making same-sex wedding cakes?  He is not refusing to serve anyone, he isrefusing to make a product. 

How is a same sex wedding cake different from an opposite sex wedding cake?







No.

We are talking about a cake.

If you make a cake, what difference does it make to the baker what the cake is used for?







Do you think a baker should be able to discriminate in baking cakes for anyone he chooses?





























Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
..MoonShine..
by Redwood Witch on Feb. 4, 2013 at 7:10 PM
It doesn't. The law is not on his side in this case. There is an anti-discrimination law in OR, and sexual orientation is a protected class in OR.

Quoting Radarma:

Granted, I have not read all the responses, I am curious: what about a proprietor's right to refuse service? How/where does that weigh in?

Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
irishgal63
by Member on Feb. 4, 2013 at 7:17 PM

   1.  he 's  trying  to  force  his  beliefs  on  the  couple  that  wanted  the  wedding  cake(he  should  've

    just  made  the  cake  &  NOT  stuck  his  nose  into  their  private  business) .

2.  he 's  being  judgemental(guess  he 's   NOT  such  a  good  christian  person, after  all ) .

Redwall
by Silver Member on Feb. 4, 2013 at 7:23 PM
If it's a privately owned business, it IS their right. He obviously doen't care about losing business, he's standing firm in his believes...and I respect him for that.
Radarma
by "OneDar" on Feb. 4, 2013 at 7:30 PM

 Yeah, I just can't get worked up over this one. Can't have your cake and eat it too...lololol

Meh, there are many cakes in life.

Euphoric
by Bazinga! on Feb. 4, 2013 at 7:32 PM

 Too much damn hate in this world.

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