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My 13 year old just got back from Church camp. When I asked her what she learned, she told me how God sent his only son to die for us and how cool she thought that was. I was very happy for her :-)

That led to a discussion about whether or not Jesus was God's son or God incarnate. She believes that he was God's son. I say he was supposed to be both. Then we talked about if Jesus actually rose from the dead after three days. She believes that while Jesus died on the cross he didn't come back to life. Instead God resurrected his spirit and his body was too special to rot so it was preserved.

Is she right? Did I learn all the wrong things in Sunday school?

by on Feb. 7, 2013 at 2:43 PM
Replies (21-28):
autodidact
by Platinum Member on Feb. 7, 2013 at 10:00 PM

just: why? 

lol

Euphoric
by Bazinga! on Feb. 7, 2013 at 10:39 PM
1 mom liked this

 Here's a bump

Clairwil
by Ruby Member on Feb. 8, 2013 at 1:20 AM
Quoting paganbaby:
Quoting momtoscott:

 There were big tussles over these questions in the early church.  Some Christians believed that Jesus was a separate entity from God and/or that his physical body was not resurrected.  Early church history is pretty interesting, and practically every line of the creeds Christians recite today reflects some kind of struggle.  There are actually specific heresies named after the interpretations you and your daughter are discussing, although I don't remember the exact names. 

Interesting!

Here's what one episcopalian Bishop wrote about it:

(source)

The Christian Faith was born in the experience that we have come to call Easter. It was this Easter experience that invested Jesus with a sense of ultimacy. It caused his followers to regard his teaching as worthy of being preserved. It was the reason that Saint Paul could write, “if Christ has not been raised then your faith is in vain.” Clearly without Easter there would be no Christianity. That assertion hardly seems debatable. At this point I discover that I am at one with the most literal fundamentalists.

What is debatable, however, is the question of what the experience of Easter really was. Here the distance between the Christianity of biblical scholarship and the Christianity of the fundamentalists opens and begins to widen. Fundamentalists are quite sure of their truth. On Easter the crucified Jesus, who was laid in the grave as a deceased man on Good Friday, was by the mighty act of God, restored to life on Easter. He had thus broken the power of death for all people. If the body of Jesus was not physically restored to life, the fundamentalists claim, then Easter is fraudulent. There can be no compromise here. Those who waver on this foundational truth of Christianity have, according to this perspective, abandoned the essential core of their faith tradition. Well, my only comment on this would be to borrow the words from an old song and say, “It ain’t necessarily so!”

When one reads the New Testament in the order in which these books were written, a fascinating progression is revealed. Paul, for example, writing between the years 50 and 64 or some 20 to 34 years after the earthly life of Jesus came to an end, never describes the resurrection of Jesus as a physical body resuscitated after death. There is no hint in the Pauline corpus that one, who had died, later walked out of his grave clothes, emerged from the tomb and was seen by his disciples.

What Paul does suggest is that Easter meant that God had acted to reverse the verdict that the world had pronounced on Jesus by raising Jesus from death into God. It was, therefore, out of God in a transforming kind of heavenly vision that this Jesus then appeared to certain chosen witnesses. Paul enumerates these witnesses and, in a telling detail, says that this was the same Jesus that Paul himself had seen. No one suggests that Paul ever saw a resuscitated body. The Pauline corpus later says, “If you then have been raised with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.” Please note that the story of the Ascension had not been written when these Pauline words were formed. Paul did not envision the Resurrection as Jesus being restored to life in this world but as Jesus being raised into God. It was not an event in time but a transcendent and transforming truth.

Paul died, according to our best estimates, around the year 64 C.E. The first Gospel was not written until the early 70′s. Paul never had a chance to read the Easter story in any Gospel. The tragedy of later Christian history is that we read Paul through the lens of the Gospels. Thus we have both distorted Paul and also confused theology.

When Mark, the first Gospel, was written the Risen Christ never appears. The last time Jesus is seen comes when his deceased body is taken from the cross and laid in the tomb. Mark’s account of the Resurrection presents us with the narrative of mourning women confronting an empty tomb, meeting a messenger who tells them that Jesus has been raised and asking these women to convey to the disciples that Jesus will meet them in Galilee. Mark then concludes his Gospel with a picture of these women fleeing in fear, saying nothing to anyone (16:1-8). So abrupt was this ending that people began to write new endings to what they thought was Mark’s incomplete story. Two of those endings are actually reproduced in the King James Version of the Bible as verses 9-20. But thankfully, these later creations have been removed from the text of Mark in recent Bibles and placed into footnotes. The sure fact of New Testament scholarship is that Mark’s Gospel ended without the Risen Christ ever being seen by anyone.

Both Matthew, who wrote between 80-85, and Luke, who wrote between 88-92, had Mark to guide their compositions. Both changed, heightened and expanded Mark. It is fascinating to lift those changes into consciousness and to ask what was it that motivated Matthew and Luke to transform Mark’s narrative. Did they have new sources of information? Had the story grown over the years in the retelling?

The first thing to note is that Matthew changes Mark’s story about the women at the tomb. First, the messenger in Mark becomes a supernatural angel in Matthew’s story. Next Matthew says the women do see Jesus in the garden. They grasp him by the feet and worship him. This is the first time in Christian history that the Resurrection is presented as physical resuscitation. It occurs in the 9th decade of the Christian era. It should be noted that it took more than 50 years to begin to interpret the Easter experience as the resuscitated body of the deceased Jesus. When Matthew presents the story of the risen Jesus to the disciples, it is on a mountaintop in Galilee where he appears out of the sky armed with heavenly power. Recall once again that when Matthew wrote this narrative the story of Jesus’ ascension had not yet entered the tradition.

Luke follows Mark’s story line about the women at the tomb, stating that they do not see Jesus in the garden on Easter morning. Luke, however, has turned Mark’s messenger into two angelic beings. He has also transferred the locale of Easter to Jerusalem specifically denying Mark’s words spoken through the messenger that Jesus will meet them in Galilee. Luke has heightened dramatically the physicality of Jesus’ resuscitated body. In Luke, the resuscitated Jesus walks, talks, eats, teaches and interprets. He also appears and disappears at will. He invites the disciples to handle his flesh. He asserts that he is not a ghost. Finally in order to remove this physically resuscitated Jesus from the earth, Luke develops the story of Jesus’ Ascension.

Even in the Ascension narrative, however, Luke is not consistent. In the last chapter of his Gospel the Ascension takes place on Easter Sunday afternoon. In the first chapter of Acts, which Luke also writes, the Ascension takes place 40 days after Easter. Whereas the messenger in Mark, who becomes an angel in Matthew, directs the disciples to Galilee for a meeting with the risen Christ, Luke specifically denies any Galilean resurrection tradition. He orders the disciples to remain in Jerusalem until they are endowed with power from on high. The narrative is clearly growing.

In John, the Fourth Gospel (95-100), the physicality of the Resurrection is even more enhanced. In the 20th chapter of this Gospel Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalene in the garden and says to her, “Mary do not cling to me.” One cannot cling to something that is non-physical. Then John suggests that Jesus ascends immediately into heaven before appearing, presumably out of heaven, that night to the disciples, who are missing Thomas. Though Jesus appears able to enter an upper room in which the windows have been closed and the doors locked, he is once again portrayed as being quite physical. This physical quality is further enhanced a week later when Jesus makes a second appearance to the disciples, this time with Thomas present. It is in this narrative that Thomas is invited to touch the nail prints and to examine the place in his side into which the spear had been hurled. All of these appearances take place in Jerusalem.

Chapter 21 of John’s Gospel portrays a Galilean appearance much later in time after the disciples have actually returned to their fishing trade. Here Jesus directs them to a great catch of fish, 153 of them to be specific. Then he eats with them. Finally he restores Peter after his three-fold denial.

The Easter story appears to have grown rather dramatically over the years. Something happened after the crucifixion of Jesus that convinced the disciples that Jesus shared in the eternal life of God and was thus available to them as a living presence. This experience was so profound that the disciples, who at his arrest had fled in fear, were now reconstituted and empowered even to die for the truth of their vision. This experience had the power to force the Jewish disciples to redefine the God of the Jews so that Jesus could be seen as part of who God is. Finally this experience was so profound that it ultimately created, on the first day of the week, a new holy day that was quite different from the Sabbath, to enable Christians to mark this transforming moment with a liturgical act called “the breaking of bread.”

When these biblical data are assembled and examined closely, two things become clear. First something of enormous power gripped the disciples following the crucifixion that transformed their lives. Second, it was some fifty years before that transforming experience was interpreted as the resuscitation of a three days dead Jesus to the life of the world. Our conversation about the meaning of Easter must begin where these two realities meet.

coronado25
by Silver Member on Feb. 8, 2013 at 4:22 AM

When you read the new testament, you will find three different endings to the story of the resurrection. All of which are silly. One thing is congruent in them all. Upon reuniting with the living, Jesus wanted to eat and he ate fish. 

Reading the bible had me alternately laughing and gasping for breath in denial and disbelief. It is nothing like the stories in Sunday School or what is preached at any church.  

I have never met a Christian who has read the bible like I did cover to cover, over and over, like I did as a Christian adult. It is through this that I gradually but surely became an atheist.




Goodwoman614
by Satan on Feb. 8, 2013 at 5:38 AM
Hmm well. So glad I'll never have to deal with this kind of thing.
I'm happy to say my dd was accepted on scholarship to one of the Camp Quests for a week this coming summer.
luvslilacs
by on Feb. 8, 2013 at 9:19 AM
1 mom liked this
I, and most people who share my faith, do believe that he was (And is) truly alive in body and spirit.

Quoting paganbaby:

So does that mean he came back to life?

Quoting luvslilacs:

I believe that the Bible states that his body was resurrected. It states that Thomas was able to put his hands in the wounds that Jesus received during his crucifixion.



I am pretty sure that is what most conservative (read Baptist-type) Christians believe and teach.


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stephs5isenough
by on Feb. 8, 2013 at 9:21 AM
1 mom liked this

 That's a Great way to explaing it to others.  Thank You.

Quoting toomanypoodles:

 (Most) Christians believe in the Deity of Christ---that God took the form of a man, Jesus.  There are many, many scriptural reference that reveal that.  I will post them.

But I like to explain it to kids with this analogy:

What if you ran an ant colony, the keeper of ants.  What if you wanted to communicate to the ants?  What if they were walking into danger and you wanted to reach the ants so you could save them from what was coming?  You can't talk to an ant, they can't understand you.  BUT, if you became an ant yourself you could then go into the colony and warn them of what would happen, you could lead them to the way of their salvation.  So I believe that is sort of what God did...became a physical man so he could reach us and show us the way in which we should go.

I learned that story as a kid.  I believe it originated with Billy Graham.  :)

 


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paganbaby
by Teflon Don on Feb. 8, 2013 at 11:28 AM
2 moms liked this

I agree :-)

Quoting stephs5isenough:

 That's a Great way to explaing it to others.  Thank You.

Quoting toomanypoodles:

 (Most) Christians believe in the Deity of Christ---that God took the form of a man, Jesus.  There are many, many scriptural reference that reveal that.  I will post them.

But I like to explain it to kids with this analogy:

What if you ran an ant colony, the keeper of ants.  What if you wanted to communicate to the ants?  What if they were walking into danger and you wanted to reach the ants so you could save them from what was coming?  You can't talk to an ant, they can't understand you.  BUT, if you became an ant yourself you could then go into the colony and warn them of what would happen, you could lead them to the way of their salvation.  So I believe that is sort of what God did...became a physical man so he could reach us and show us the way in which we should go.

I learned that story as a kid.  I believe it originated with Billy Graham.  :)

 


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