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Do you agree with Zerlina that we need to stop lecturing women and start teaching men not to rape?

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Teach Men Not to Rape: An Idea So Crazy It Just Might Work (VIDEO)

by Adriana Velez 

zerlina maxwellShould women carry a firearm in case of rape? People have been arguing over this question since Colorado state senator Evie Hudak told a rape survivor that "statistics are not on your side" as a potential rape victim even if you're carrying a concealed weapon. So what should we tell women about preventing rape? YOU ARE ASKING THE WRONG QUESTION, says rape survivor and political commentator Zerlina Maxwell.

Zerlina appeared on Sean Hannity's FOX News show over the weekend and introduced a rape prevention idea so radical, it blew people's minds: Teach men not to rape. Teach who not to what now? Brain hurts. Confused. Words not make sense. WHAT.

I'm kidding. Obviously it's the most sensible solution and it's sad that Maxwell got any blow back over it at all. But she did. Of course she did. Conservative news sites were all, "that's shocking!" and "bizarre" and she's "oversimplifying" and she "owes rape victims an apology!" I just ... I can't with these people. Oh -- and then there were all the rape threats she got from trolls on Facebook. Well done, asshats. Well done.

Anyway, here's how Zerlina put it on Hannity's show:

I don’t think that we should be telling women anything. I think we should be telling men not to rape women and start the conversation there. You’re talking about this as if it’s some faceless, nameless criminal, when a lot of times it’s someone you know and trust. If you train men not to grow up to become rapists, you prevent rape.

This is the chilling thing about rape. Sure, there's "evil" stranger danger out there. But most rapes are committed by men women know and trust. The Stuebenville boys accused of rape were just "average guys," Maxwell says. But we don't want to admit this! We don't want to admit that our sons, brothers, fathers, husbands, boyfriends, and friends are capable of rape. But we do need to wrap our heads around this idea. We need to believe "regular" guys are capable of rape (not just random "criminals"), and we need to educate these guys about what rape is and why they shouldn't do it.

Because there's a lot of men out there who haven't gotten the memo.

Anyway, Maxwell would like to see more training and conversations for men. She recently wrote up five ways we can teach men not to rape. And she'd like us to stop lying to women about how, if we would just stop acting like such sluts, we wouldn't get raped. "I don't want anybody to lecture a rape survivor about anything. And I don't want anybody telling women that if you don't wear a skirt or don't drink at all, you're going to be safe. That is a lie."

This reminds me of an incident at my college years ago. There had been a few attacks on women in the wooded area at the edge of campus. And so the university administration sent out the message to women: NEVER WALK ALONE. A few of us thought that was pathetic, and that maybe it's the men who can't be trusted to go anywhere alone?!?

So we came up with a crazy idea -- we put up flyers announcing that because of the attacks, men would be required to be escorted around campus by at least two females in order to demonstrate that they're not threatening. It was a joke, obviously. It was supposed to make people stop and ask themselves: Why is it women's responsibility to stop men from being violent? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Because people are defensive and literal-minded and sometimes just plain dumb, this idea went over a lot of heads. But I still want to believe we made a few people think. And I really hope Zerlina Maxwell is making people think (like, with their brains and everything) about how we're going about this whole rape prevention thing all wrong. What's it going to take, guys? Do you have the balls to learn -- and teach each other -- not to rape? Are you ready for that? Are you man enough?


Do you agree with Zerlina that we need to stop lecturing women and start teaching men not to rape?

by on Mar. 12, 2013 at 3:24 PM
Replies (41-50):
Xlandria
by on Mar. 13, 2013 at 4:34 AM

I think men need to be taught a lot of things with the first being that are to respect women. If you respect someone you don't think about hurting them or going against their wishes. If a man gets out of line, then they are judged to be in the wrong. I remember waaaayyyy back in Junior High when there was 2 assemblies, one for girls & one for guys. Don't know what the guys were told but I've never forgotten that the girls were told that it was our responsibility to keep them in line because we had more self-control. From then on we had it put in our heads that if things got out of hand it was OUR fault. To this day some still believe that. My step-daughter, an adult w/2 kids of her own hooked up with an old High School crush & long story short, they got pregnant - with twins - they are 3-1/2 now & his parents still blame her alone for getting pregnant. Empower your daughters with the knowledge & belief that they are to be respected and only give respect to those who treat you with respect. One last thing, when it was announced that the bill/law concerning violence against women was re-signed I thought, "how sad is it that there has to be a law making it a crime to hurt women." This should be a given.

KittenKrump
by on Mar. 13, 2013 at 5:00 AM
We, as a society, do NOT tech men not to rape. At least not sufficiently. All you need to look at to know that is bull shit is the show How I Met Your Mother. All the male characters, with the exception of Marshall, have committed rape by fraud, if nothing else. It's not about teaching men not to commit violent rape (where it involves brute forces and physical violence), it's about thing them about the "grey" areas. A drunk person CANNOT consent, never coerce your partner (if they say no the first time, that is NO, don't try to guilt them our convince them, when they're ready they're ready, not because you tried so hard), never lie to get into a persons pants, just because they're flirting does not give you a pass to do what you want.

Quoting soonergirl980:

I think we already "teach" men to not rape. That's why there are laws. Rape is not an instinctive action that all men need to be taught you don't rape. People that commit those acts cannot be "taught" not to they is something inherently wrong with them that it is unlikely hearing every single day no means no will stop them. Saying we shouldn't teach women to be aware or not to take responsibilty in our own personal safety or to count on teaching men not to do it means leaving that safety in the hands of a man one would think a feminist wouldn't like that very much. 

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idunno1234
by Silver Member on Mar. 13, 2013 at 8:05 AM

There are a couple of things that struck me about this:

One is that the whole premise of having a gun for protection becomes a lot more complicated when we realize that most women know their rapists/abusers.  Stranger rape is relatively rare.  Acquaintance rape, not so much, and its still way unreported, due to the nature of the crime.

Also, while I agree that we should all teach nonviolence and respect for others to our children, obviously saying that we need to teach men not to rape is as simplistic as we need to teach men not to war because violence is wrong. 

  I agree that there is a long, long way to go for women on this planet to feel safe but most of us are still part of the problem, not the solution, in the way we accept the status quo.  Even today, the fact that the US has never elected a woman president, that the percentage of women Fortune 500 CEOs is still in the single digits and women still have only about 20% (a record high, btw) of congressional seats indicates that we have accepted the status quo for way too long.

Males are culturally infused, virtually worldwide to varying degrees, with a sense of entitlement and superiority (if you question this, what is the worst insult for a boy? How much do girls get to learn about how females have shaped the world when learning history in school, etc?).  It will take a lot more than telling our sons not to rape for that to change.  Women have to start taking responsibility for getting the human race on track.

If only we can stop bitching among ourselves :) 

macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Mar. 13, 2013 at 8:36 AM

I do not belive in "rape by faud."  The woman should be responsible enough not to sleep with a man until she truly knows him.  If she willing has sex, and then finds out he lied to her, the fact is she still consented.


Quoting KittenKrump:

We, as a society, do NOT tech men not to rape. At least not sufficiently. All you need to look at to know that is bull shit is the show How I Met Your Mother. All the male characters, with the exception of Marshall, have committed rape by fraud, if nothing else. It's not about teaching men not to commit violent rape (where it involves brute forces and physical violence), it's about thing them about the "grey" areas. A drunk person CANNOT consent, never coerce your partner (if they say no the first time, that is NO, don't try to guilt them our convince them, when they're ready they're ready, not because you tried so hard), never lie to get into a persons pants, just because they're flirting does not give you a pass to do what you want.

Quoting soonergirl980:

I think we already "teach" men to not rape. That's why there are laws. Rape is not an instinctive action that all men need to be taught you don't rape. People that commit those acts cannot be "taught" not to they is something inherently wrong with them that it is unlikely hearing every single day no means no will stop them. Saying we shouldn't teach women to be aware or not to take responsibilty in our own personal safety or to count on teaching men not to do it means leaving that safety in the hands of a man one would think a feminist wouldn't like that very much. 



macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Mar. 13, 2013 at 8:37 AM

Could you clairfy what role you see purity rings and virginity playing?


Quoting Clairwil:

I think we should lecture everyone.

Men rape women.
Women rape women.
Women rape men.
Men rape men.
Women raise children who later become rapists.
Men raise children who later become rapists.

Sure, some of these happen more frequently than others, but everyone should get the basic lecture about enthustiac undeceived and uncoerced consent, with a side order of "drunk isn't yes, nude isn't yes, flirting isn't yes, having sex on a previous occasion isn't yes; being in a relationship or paying for dinner does not 'buy' you a yes, and underage people are not capable of full consent."

Ideally the lecture should also contain stuff on what to do if a drunk friend is at a party, and you think she is in danger of being raped by the 'kind' guy taking her off to a quiet bedroom to sleep it off, and how to raise your kids not to be that guy OR the guy's best friend who turns a blind eye.


And, on the other side, I think men should get the lecture women have been getting, about safety, survival, survivor guilty, the various types of rapist motivation, etc.

Not to mention how some fucked up memes in society like Madonna-Whore, purity rings, veneration of chastity and virginity, being a stereotypical 'man', etc. play into it.



KittenKrump
by on Mar. 13, 2013 at 8:38 AM
Then you're part of the problem and i have nothing more to say.

Quoting macbudsmom:

I do not belive in "rape by faud."  The woman should be responsible enough not to sleep with a man until she truly knows him.  If she willing has sex, and then finds out he lied to her, the fact is she still consented.



Quoting KittenKrump:

We, as a society, do NOT tech men not to rape. At least not sufficiently. All you need to look at to know that is bull shit is the show How I Met Your Mother. All the male characters, with the exception of Marshall, have committed rape by fraud, if nothing else. It's not about teaching men not to commit violent rape (where it involves brute forces and physical violence), it's about thing them about the "grey" areas. A drunk person CANNOT consent, never coerce your partner (if they say no the first time, that is NO, don't try to guilt them our convince them, when they're ready they're ready, not because you tried so hard), never lie to get into a persons pants, just because they're flirting does not give you a pass to do what you want.



Quoting soonergirl980:

I think we already "teach" men to not rape. That's why there are laws. Rape is not an instinctive action that all men need to be taught you don't rape. People that commit those acts cannot be "taught" not to they is something inherently wrong with them that it is unlikely hearing every single day no means no will stop them. Saying we shouldn't teach women to be aware or not to take responsibilty in our own personal safety or to count on teaching men not to do it means leaving that safety in the hands of a man one would think a feminist wouldn't like that very much. 




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macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Mar. 13, 2013 at 8:42 AM

lol Why enter a discussion forum if you aren't willing to discuss the issue?


Quoting KittenKrump:

Then you're part of the problem and i have nothing more to say.

Quoting macbudsmom:

I do not belive in "rape by faud."  The woman should be responsible enough not to sleep with a man until she truly knows him.  If she willing has sex, and then finds out he lied to her, the fact is she still consented.



Quoting KittenKrump:

We, as a society, do NOT tech men not to rape. At least not sufficiently. All you need to look at to know that is bull shit is the show How I Met Your Mother. All the male characters, with the exception of Marshall, have committed rape by fraud, if nothing else. It's not about teaching men not to commit violent rape (where it involves brute forces and physical violence), it's about thing them about the "grey" areas. A drunk person CANNOT consent, never coerce your partner (if they say no the first time, that is NO, don't try to guilt them our convince them, when they're ready they're ready, not because you tried so hard), never lie to get into a persons pants, just because they're flirting does not give you a pass to do what you want.



Quoting soonergirl980:

I think we already "teach" men to not rape. That's why there are laws. Rape is not an instinctive action that all men need to be taught you don't rape. People that commit those acts cannot be "taught" not to they is something inherently wrong with them that it is unlikely hearing every single day no means no will stop them. Saying we shouldn't teach women to be aware or not to take responsibilty in our own personal safety or to count on teaching men not to do it means leaving that safety in the hands of a man one would think a feminist wouldn't like that very much. 






spiritedsoul
by Member on Mar. 13, 2013 at 8:44 AM
1 mom liked this

I think if everyone just taught each other to treat one another with respect, treat others the way you wish to be treated, this world would be a lot better place. Everyone gets raped, not just women. & I'm not blaming the victim, but common sense, if you are going somewhere alone, stay sober, dress appropriately, be alert. That goes for everyone, men & women alike. Don't take advantage of others just because you think you can! Sick World.

KittenKrump
by on Mar. 13, 2013 at 8:49 AM
Because it's obvious by your statement you are a victim blamer and i will not tolerate that. I'll discuss whatever but the moment you lay the blame at the victims feet you are not worth the time and anger.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol Why enter a discussion forum if you aren't willing to discuss the issue?



Quoting KittenKrump:

Then you're part of the problem and i have nothing more to say.



Quoting macbudsmom:

I do not belive in "rape by faud."  The woman should be responsible enough not to sleep with a man until she truly knows him.  If she willing has sex, and then finds out he lied to her, the fact is she still consented.




Quoting KittenKrump:

We, as a society, do NOT tech men not to rape. At least not sufficiently. All you need to look at to know that is bull shit is the show How I Met Your Mother. All the male characters, with the exception of Marshall, have committed rape by fraud, if nothing else. It's not about teaching men not to commit violent rape (where it involves brute forces and physical violence), it's about thing them about the "grey" areas. A drunk person CANNOT consent, never coerce your partner (if they say no the first time, that is NO, don't try to guilt them our convince them, when they're ready they're ready, not because you tried so hard), never lie to get into a persons pants, just because they're flirting does not give you a pass to do what you want.





Quoting soonergirl980:

I think we already "teach" men to not rape. That's why there are laws. Rape is not an instinctive action that all men need to be taught you don't rape. People that commit those acts cannot be "taught" not to they is something inherently wrong with them that it is unlikely hearing every single day no means no will stop them. Saying we shouldn't teach women to be aware or not to take responsibilty in our own personal safety or to count on teaching men not to do it means leaving that safety in the hands of a man one would think a feminist wouldn't like that very much. 








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macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Mar. 13, 2013 at 8:52 AM

There is no victim in that scenario.  People lie all the time, pretend to be someone or something they are not.  If you choose to have sex with them, thats on you.  IT ISN'T RAPE.

It is you who are being offensive to REAL rape victims.


Quoting KittenKrump:

Because it's obvious by your statement you are a victim blamer and i will not tolerate that. I'll discuss whatever but the moment you lay the blame at the victims feet you are not worth the time and anger.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol Why enter a discussion forum if you aren't willing to discuss the issue?



Quoting KittenKrump:

Then you're part of the problem and i have nothing more to say.



Quoting macbudsmom:

I do not belive in "rape by faud."  The woman should be responsible enough not to sleep with a man until she truly knows him.  If she willing has sex, and then finds out he lied to her, the fact is she still consented.




Quoting KittenKrump:

We, as a society, do NOT tech men not to rape. At least not sufficiently. All you need to look at to know that is bull shit is the show How I Met Your Mother. All the male characters, with the exception of Marshall, have committed rape by fraud, if nothing else. It's not about teaching men not to commit violent rape (where it involves brute forces and physical violence), it's about thing them about the "grey" areas. A drunk person CANNOT consent, never coerce your partner (if they say no the first time, that is NO, don't try to guilt them our convince them, when they're ready they're ready, not because you tried so hard), never lie to get into a persons pants, just because they're flirting does not give you a pass to do what you want.





Quoting soonergirl980:

I think we already "teach" men to not rape. That's why there are laws. Rape is not an instinctive action that all men need to be taught you don't rape. People that commit those acts cannot be "taught" not to they is something inherently wrong with them that it is unlikely hearing every single day no means no will stop them. Saying we shouldn't teach women to be aware or not to take responsibilty in our own personal safety or to count on teaching men not to do it means leaving that safety in the hands of a man one would think a feminist wouldn't like that very much. 










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