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I've been reading so many downright disgusting comments about women and rape now that it has once again made international headlines (India, Ohio, etc. etc.)

I wrote up a blog expressing some thoughts, but here was a key point that I wanted to discuss-

"

People, so many people- are jumping at the bit, justifying rape at the expense of the victim.

She didn’t say no soon enough. She was a tease. She dressed a certain way. She hung out in the wrong venue. She put herself in a bad position (drinking, drugs).

Here’s the thing I’m hearing here:

Women are walking around, available to screw any time a guy wants to. UNLESS she says no."

Do you agree with that conclusion? That some people seem to think that sex is okay-expected- unless they object (soon enough), vs. sex isn't expected, deserved, etc UNLESS she consents? What do you feel is causing statements like the above examples to be made?

by on Mar. 23, 2013 at 11:19 AM
Replies (271-280):
ethans_momma06
by Bronze Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:23 PM


Dude actually did. Which is why he had to mentally check with himself to okay what he was doing before continuing on. Which is why he was able to stop.

Quoting Bieg9093:

 "She seemed kinda nervous, but at the same time I remember she was saying provocative things"

She was saying yes and no at the same time.  Dude never stood a chance.

Quoting ethans_momma06:




 



MomofHDFandNWF
by Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:26 PM

I followed your whole line of thinking... and I agree with you.  Like you said, it does not give teh man permission to rape her, but I think the choices women and men make in a bar setting definitely can lead to "issues" that would not happen in a scenario where people were not drunk and letting it "all hang out" - FWIW.

Quoting jehosoba84:

 I said they're asking for unwanted attention. I think that the way you dress and act with your body (baring all and rubbing up against them) clearly says you're open to idea of sex. Unless she says No.  The things I've said relate more to a scene in a bar/etc with people getting drunk. I'm not referring to random assaults and forcible rape.

Quoting ReadWriteLuv:

Don't backpeddle. You said that anyone who dresses in that fashion is asking to be raped. So, if your friend in your instance had actually been raped, not danced with, by your line of thinking it would be her fault. 

Quoting jehosoba84:

 

Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting jehosoba84:

 Maybe my thinking is a product of the society I live in.   But if I go out, dressed like a skank, get drunk among strangers.... I really shouldn't be surprised if I get taken advantage of. By that.. I don't mean forcible rape. I mean he's drunk, and I'm drunk. Things happen that I didn't want to happen. According to law, that is rape.   

 In my opinion, a woman can dress very classy/sexy without baring breasts and wearing mini skirts. That kind of clothing send a very clear message. Men are visually oriented, we all know this. So why do we as women dress the way we do (leaving nothing to the imagination) and then act all surprised when we get 'unwanted' attention from it?

I understand what you are saying.  But no man should 'assume' any woman, regardless of her outfit or otherwise, is all for having sex.......unless she tells him so with her words and nothing else.  I'm really trying to explain my thoughts on this without making it seem like I'm just making excuses for men. But you say she must tell him so with words. Women are much more verbal than men. they are more visual creatures. In *his* mind she has already told him she would be open to sex by the way she dressed and acted. Can you really blame him to thinking so? So to me, it's not 'unless she tells him so with words' it's more like 'unless she tells him no with words.'   Did that make sense?

Recently, I was out with a few people, different ages, the youngest being 21.  She was dancing with friends, by way of doing nothing more than bending over and shaking her ass.  All the while her boobs were hanging out of her top.

Some guy comes up behind her, on the dance floor.  She does not stand up or move away.  They are 'dancing', by way of her shaking her ass in his groin and he is grinding up against her. 

When the song ends, she starts to complain that he had a hard on.  What the hell did she expect?!?  She did not move away when he came up behind her to 'dance' and she then continued to 'dance' in the same manner the rest of the evening.  

Now, even though I found her behavior to be rather disgusting and her attitude as well, even though she put herself out there in such a way, no one should have assumed they could have sex with her unless she absolutely agreed.

But the attention she got..........she brought on herself.  If she had not wanted that kind of attention she would have acted in a different manner.  

Some people, regardless of male or female, want all the attention they can get, up to the point of sex.  This only tells me that person has some issues for seeking that type of attention but it, in no way, should be a determination of if they want, or should, be engaged in any sexual activity.

 


 


ms-superwoman
by Silver Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:27 PM

I think the notion that "sex is ok unless someone says no" absolutely ridiculous.

justinnaimee
by Bronze Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:30 PM
I agree she has the right to change her mind and say no at any point. However, the question begs did she say no? She invited him into her bed, she kissed him and said "provocative things" then when he tried to escalate at that point its her responsibility to make her intentions known. Imo he didnt try to rape her. He probably got a bit too agressive but she is not completely innocent.

Quoting mehamil1:

People change their minds. Maybe it seemed like a good idea when he was in the doorway and then became a bad idea when he was in her bed. I've been in that position. Like, ok, this no longer feels right, I want to back off. We have the right to change our minds. I don't blame her for changing her mind. And I'm glad he backed off. 

Just because she said yes and then a minute later said no, that doesn't mean she's to blame. Not at all. Feelings and reactions change at a moments notice and they should always be respected. Hindsight is 20/20 and I would hope she learned from that experience. 


Quoting justinnaimee:
While this man was in no way right there is one big glaring thing this girl did. Why would you invite a person to sleep with you in your bed? No that doesnt mean she consented but what did she expect to happen? I dont think how you dress or how sloppy you get when drunk is an invitation for sex. In this situation she does share a portion of the blame. And I'm glad he got the memo and backed off.

Quoting Bieg9093:

 Cutting and pasting 2 replies from the Reddit link where men who've raped desribe their experiences.  Now this first one...as far as I'm concerned the fact that she's 17 makes it heinous even if she had wanted it.  Adults must not take advantage of children.  Period.  But this same scenario surely plays out between adults all the time. Only serendipity made him realize what was happening.  I can't help but feel horrible for both male and female:


It happened when I was maybe 22. I had been visiting a buddy of mine who was living in a basement apartment in a college town. Upstairs lived a single dad and his teenage daughter. The dad worked nights if I recall.


So I show up to my buddies place, and we're having fun day hanging out, pre-drinking before we hit the bars that night. It was summer. The girl from upstairs had a couple friends over. I can't remember how it happened, but me and the girl (she was maybe 17) ended up play wrestling with me pinning her down. We were all laughing, but we when made eye contact...it was "that" look we exchanged. The.."I'd fuck you" look. I immediatly got up and later me and my buddie went to the bar. The night would have gone like any other, drinking, dancing, hitting on women. I remember getting back to the house, and my buddy led me into the girls room. He asked her if I could crash in her room. I was kinda astounded actually that she said yes.


I think thats when in my drunken mind I thought that she MUST have wanted it.


I was on one side of the bed, clumsily trying to play footsie with her. She seemed kinda nervous, but at the same time I remember she was saying provocative things. At some point I just said screw it and climbed on top of her and tried to kiss her. She tried to squirm away.


Now, I remember exactly what I was thinking at the time. This girl gave me "the look" earlier, she invited me into her bed. What teenage girl would pass up the oppertunity to be with a 22 year old guy? She MUST want it. I tried again, and slid my hands over her body.


It was then I looked at her face. She was petrified. I at that point pulled myself together, rolled off her and apologized. My hormones were RAGING. I asked her why she didn't want to. I told her what I thought above. She started to cry.


I got up, apologized again and went to the couch and spent the night staring at the ceiling thinking I was going to go to jail.


My buddy got up and we went for breakfast. When we got back, one the girls friends was there and demanded to speak to me outside. She quietly told me that her friend said I tried to rape her. She wanted to hear my side, since the day before I seemed like such a funny/sweet guy. I told her the story. She looked at me with a disgust I'll never forget and said that I may not have been an actual rapist...but I was as close to one as you could get. I wanted to apologise again, but her friend said it best that I just leave. I got in my car and left right away.


That was the lowest I've ever felt in my life.

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Mrs.Kubalabuku
by Bronze Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:30 PM
1 mom liked this

I have big breasts.  ANY shirt I wear becomes a cleavage shirt.  I get unwanted attention all the time.  The only way to fix this is to chop my breasts off.

Heck, turtlenecks, which cover the cleavage, make my boobs look SO MUCH BIGGER because they stick out so far with nothing to distract, like a cool neckline or something.

Ironically, several fashion consultants from major shows tell busty women they SHOULD wear V necks, that longer necklines help DETRACT from the bust.  But it results in hefty cleavage.

I suppose, though, that since I have cleavage a mile long or giant in your face boobs no matter what I wear, any guy who sees it and likes it should be allowed to stick his dick in me, right?  SMDH

The rest of my outfits are usually blue jeans or slacks, btw.  I'm not wearing tiny bottoms with skimpy tops.

I DO get what you are saying, but that mentality means even innocent women like me, who dress as best we can to suit a situation, are just objectified because we can't "hide" our assets, kwim?  Shirts that go all the way up to the neck accentuate the size.  Shirts with a different neckline distract from the overall size, but reveal cleavage.  It's lose/lose.  And it sucks that I don't feel safe going anywhere without DH to have a good time because I'm SCARED of how men will interpret my clothing.  You don't have to get drunk, you just need one asshole slipping a pill in your drink or jumping you in the parking lot.

I think the best approach is to keep pounding it into society's collective heads that men SHOULD NOT RAPE regardless of what she is wearing or doing, unless she is consenting.

The "lack of refusal" isn't consent, and that has been upheld time and time again in court.  Otherwise, a man could clock me on the head with a baseball bat without me never saying no, and it will mean it was my fault.

Rape is wrong, PERIOD.  Should women care more about themselves and try to be safe?  Yes.  But when ALL our focus is on that aspect, it is easy to blame the victim.  As a society, we insist women should be carefil with open drinks, how they dress, how they act, how they speak, what they say, how they dance, and on and on.  And we tell men as a footnote not to rape.  I just feel that should be reversed.  We should teach men not to rape, not to allow their friends to rape, and make THAT the point, and the footnote be reminding girls to respect themselves and be mindful of their surroundings.

BTW, I was brutally attacked and raped while walking home one night.  I was a DD, but the woman refused to give me her keys and I felt unsafe riding with her drunk.  I was wearing a sweatshirt and bluejeans.  I was snatched off a well-lit, well-trafficked corner.  I was completely sober.  In the end, rape has VERY LITTLE to do with what she's wearing or doing, and A LOT to do with a man wanting to feel in control and get what he wants.

Quoting jehosoba84:

 Maybe my thinking is a product of the society I live in.   But if I go out, dressed like a skank, get drunk among strangers.... I really shouldn't be surprised if I get taken advantage of. By that.. I don't mean forcible rape. I mean he's drunk, and I'm drunk. Things happen that I didn't want to happen. According to law, that is rape.   

 In my opinion, a woman can dress very classy/sexy without baring breasts and wearing mini skirts. That kind of clothing send a very clear message. Men are visually oriented, we all know this. So why do we as women dress the way we do (leaving nothing to the imagination) and then act all surprised when we get 'unwanted' attention from it?



FromAtoZ
by AllieCat on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:33 PM

I hope I know of no one who teaches their child, regardless of male of female, that the responsibility of whether or not they want to have sex falls on to the other person.

We are all responsible for ourselves and we need to find ways to teach every one that we need to use our words and not rely on others to assume they know what we are thinking or feeling.

Not just when it comes to sex either.  Overall.  

I know that I have certainly learned, the hard way (not just where sex is concerned) that my assuming another person should know what I am thinking or feeling, based on actions or not, without my actually telling them, can lead to serious issues in any given circumstance.  

Any given girl, or guy, should not be expected to know what another one wants.  Whether that be by thinking the girl dressed in nothing more than a thong and bra wants sex or by the girl who all of a sudden starts squirming isn't in to it.  Just examples, of course this topic in and of itself is very broad.

mehamil1
by Platinum Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:40 PM

Do you see how that attitude towards how women dress contributes to rape culture? I'm speaking in general, not accusing you of anything. 

What if our society had no real stance of whatever a woman (or man for that matter) is wearing? What if many of us walked around naked weather permitting and no one thought anything of it? What if women could go into a any establishment wearing whatever she wanted to wear that day because she felt like it and no one bat an eye at it because there was no prevailing cultural attitude towards clothing and how we wear it? 

I know this world does not exit. But we can work to push for that kind of world. To see women and how they are dressed and really nothing to talk about, bat an eye at, or judge. What we wear is something we decide when we get up in the morning or go out for the evening. 

These cultural attitudes towards skimpy clothing is what keeps rape culture and victim blaming alive. Most of us can all agree that no one should be raped for what they are wearing but there's still that little voice that we keeping giving a microphone to, that she should not have dressed that way and then she wouldn't have become a target. Which just is not true and is not supported by any kind of statistical evidence. Clothing does not cause sexual assault. It just doesn't. But our cultural attitudes towards women and our bodies and how we decorate them whichever way we deem, does contribute to sexual assault. Societies that are more egalitarian where there isn't a high level of sexism and judgement towards women and what they wear have lower incidences of sexual assault. That is a sociological fact supported by a lot of data. 

Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

I followed your whole line of thinking... and I agree with you.  Like you said, it does not give teh man permission to rape her, but I think the choices women and men make in a bar setting definitely can lead to "issues" that would not happen in a scenario where people were not drunk and letting it "all hang out" - FWIW.

Quoting jehosoba84:

 I said they're asking for unwanted attention. I think that the way you dress and act with your body (baring all and rubbing up against them) clearly says you're open to idea of sex. Unless she says No.  The things I've said relate more to a scene in a bar/etc with people getting drunk. I'm not referring to random assaults and forcible rape.

Quoting ReadWriteLuv:

Don't backpeddle. You said that anyone who dresses in that fashion is asking to be raped. So, if your friend in your instance had actually been raped, not danced with, by your line of thinking it would be her fault. 

Quoting jehosoba8
mehamil1
by Platinum Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:41 PM

I'm big boobed as well, 38 DD. Doesn't matter what I wear, they will always look huge. I feel you. 

Quoting Mrs.Kubalabuku:

I have big breasts.  ANY shirt I wear becomes a cleavage shirt.  I get unwanted attention all the time.  The only way to fix this is to chop my breasts off.

Heck, turtlenecks, which cover the cleavage, make my boobs look SO MUCH BIGGER because they stick out so far with nothing to distract, like a cool neckline or something.

Ironically, several fashion consultants from major shows tell busty women they SHOULD wear V necks, that longer necklines help DETRACT from the bust.  But it results in hefty cleavage.

I suppose, though, that since I have cleavage a mile long or giant in your face boobs no matter what I wear, any guy who sees it and likes it should be allowed to stick his dick in me, right?  SMDH

The rest of my outfits are usually blue jeans or slacks, btw.  I'm not wearing tiny bottoms with skimpy tops.

I DO get what you are saying, but that mentality means even innocent women like me, who dress as best we can to suit a situation, are just objectified because we can't "hide" our assets, kwim?  Shirts that go all the way up to the neck accentuate the size.  Shirts with a different neckline distract from the overall size, but reveal cleavage.  It's lose/lose.  And it sucks that I don't feel safe going anywhere without DH to have a good time because I'm SCARED of how men will interpret my clothing.  You don't have to get drunk, you just need one asshole slipping a pill in your drink or jumping you in the parking lot.

I think the best approach is to keep pounding it into society's collective heads that men SHOULD NOT RAPE regardless of what she is wearing or doing, unless she is consenting.

The "lack of refusal" isn't consent, and that has been upheld time and time again in court.  Otherwise, a man could clock me on the head with a baseball bat without me never saying no, and it will mean it was my fault.

Rape is wrong, PERIOD.  Should women care more about themselves and try to be safe?  Yes.  But when ALL our focus is on that aspect, it is easy to blame the victim.  As a society, we insist women should be carefil with open drinks, how they dress, how they act, how they speak, what they say, how they dance, and on and on.  And we tell men as a footnote not to rape.  I just feel that should be reversed.  We should teach men not to rape, not to allow their friends to rape, and make THAT the point, and the footnote be reminding girls to respect themselves and be mindful of their surroundings.

BTW, I was brutally attacked and raped while walking home one night.  I was a DD, but the woman refused to give me her keys and I felt unsafe riding with her drunk.  I was wearing a sweatshirt and bluejeans.  I was snatched off a well-lit, well-trafficked corner.  I was completely sober.  In the end, rape has VERY LITTLE to do with what she's wearing or doing, and A LOT to do with a man wanting to feel in control and get what he wants.

Quoting jehosoba84:

 Maybe my thinking is a product of the society I live in.   But if I go out, dressed like a skank, get drunk among strangers.... I really shouldn't be surprised if I get taken advantage of. By that.. I don't mean forcible rape. I mean he's drunk, and I'm drunk. Things happen that I didn't want to happen. According to law, that is rape.   

 In my opinion, a woman can dress very classy/sexy without baring breasts and wearing mini skirts. That kind of clothing send a very clear message. Men are visually oriented, we all know this. So why do we as women dress the way we do (leaving nothing to the imagination) and then act all surprised when we get 'unwanted' attention from it?

Carpy
by Ruby Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:42 PM
very

Quoting Bieg9093:

 That's twisted.


Quoting Carpy:

It is sixteen in many state and a few are 14. which I highly disagree with.


Quoting Bieg9093:


 Statutory rape is rape.  Adults must protect children, not have sex with them.  I thought 18 was the standard age for consent.  If, in that state, 17 is legal then no...not heinous.



Quoting Carpy:

The fact that she is 17 makes it heinous to you? Really? That really is not what I would call heinous. 17 is legal in most states and sorry, but their was clearly a signal sent there when she lets him sleep in her bed. At least he stopped. Now if you said 7 and he forced himself on her, then I could certainly agree.



Quoting Bieg9093:
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kaylasmom22
by Bronze Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:44 PM
Agree

Quoting jehosoba84:

 Maybe my thinking is a product of the society I live in.   But if I go out, dressed like a skank, get drunk among strangers.... I really shouldn't be surprised if I get taken advantage of. By that.. I don't mean forcible rape. I mean he's drunk, and I'm drunk. Things happen that I didn't want to happen. According to law, that is rape.   


 In my opinion, a woman can dress very classy/sexy without baring breasts and wearing mini skirts. That kind of clothing send a very clear message. Men are visually oriented, we all know this. So why do we as women dress the way we do (leaving nothing to the imagination) and then act all surprised when we get 'unwanted' attention from it?

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