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I've been reading so many downright disgusting comments about women and rape now that it has once again made international headlines (India, Ohio, etc. etc.)

I wrote up a blog expressing some thoughts, but here was a key point that I wanted to discuss-

"

People, so many people- are jumping at the bit, justifying rape at the expense of the victim.

She didn’t say no soon enough. She was a tease. She dressed a certain way. She hung out in the wrong venue. She put herself in a bad position (drinking, drugs).

Here’s the thing I’m hearing here:

Women are walking around, available to screw any time a guy wants to. UNLESS she says no."

Do you agree with that conclusion? That some people seem to think that sex is okay-expected- unless they object (soon enough), vs. sex isn't expected, deserved, etc UNLESS she consents? What do you feel is causing statements like the above examples to be made?

by on Mar. 23, 2013 at 11:19 AM
Replies (281-290):
parentalrights1
by on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:48 PM
Everywhere I read and me. I've talked to have said they want girls to wear heels and tht they like the color "red" on women.

And some men have said they like the girls to look stylish


Quoting mehamil1:

I have learned the hard way that men find us attractive regardless (not all though). I have had many male friends say that sweatpants are hot. Old tshirts are hot. Unkempt hair is hot. So finally I asked "so it's women in general who are hot?" I got a resounding yes. So now I dress for me, so that I feel attractive for myself, not anyone else. Regardless, people will always react differently and most men would be more than willing to do me since I am biologically female. For too many, that's really the only necessity. Doesn't matter what she looks like. 

We are told to look a certain way "for men" by our media/society in order to sell stuff. It's been that way for as long as business has been around or if anyone had any kind of interest in trading something that's considered attractive. It's part of who we are as a species. However, vast majority of the time, at least in regards to most men, we don't need any of that. Hence why rape has nothing to do with what a woman is wearing and everything to do with the fact that she's female and perceived to be vulnerable. A rapist will pick out who he thinks will be the easiest target. Drunk women too often are the targets because of that vulnerability, doesn't matter what they are wearing. 


Quoting parentalrights1:
That's another reason people need to stop victim blaming. Men will signals where there aren't any.



I remember some awkward emails from a man to his dates that went around a little while back where he was confused that tey didnt want a second date because he had seen then "playing with their hair." And he had read that girls play with their hair when they like a guy.



There was a post here in cm where a woman was posting about her teenage sister who she had sent to the nextdoor neighbors house (don't remember why) and the neighbor didnt try to rape her, but he tried to initiate sex because she was wearing an oversize tee shirt that day, and because she felt self conscious thinking it looked like she wasnt wearing shorts, the pulled the shirt up some to make the shorts visible and HE thought she was showing him her ass.



And we've all tried to attract men in our lives. Whether it was more subtle with makeup or stronger with short skirts, we've all tried to be sexy, but that didnt mean we were inviting any guy to have sex. We just wanted to turn heads or get someone to find us attractive

Quoting mehamil1:

I think it's insane that he would think that just because she's 17 and he's 22 that she would want to screw him simply based on that. "What 17 year old wouldn't want to get with a 22 year old?" That is mind boggling to me. What kind of person justifies that? 


Quotingethans_momma06:

This is what I was talking about earlier- about mixed signals. They do happen. However, clearly- despite all "the signals" that he was picking up- she was displaying others that he began to push aside, justifying his actions based on what he *thought* (or wanted to think) were yes's.

This is what I think a lot of us were getting at. When a girl is squirming- that's a signal NOT to push ahead. To check and make sure that things are consensual.

Thankfully, he was able to eventually see without a doubt that she was saying NO. And, he didn't rape her. But, he almost did.

The flirting, the wrestling- what they meant (if they were yes's) are immediatly voided when she says no. You don't get to not stop when she's saying stop, even if she said Go! Go! Go! Earlier- plain as day.


Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
mehamil1
by Platinum Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:49 PM
1 mom liked this

Oh good lord, you'd think this wasn't a first world nation! 

Quoting Carpy:
very
Quoting Bieg9093:

 That's twisted.

Quoting Carpy:
It is sixteen in many state and a few are 14. which I highly disagree with.
Quoting Bieg9093:

 Statutory rape is rape.  Adults must protect children, not have sex with them.  I thought 18 was the standard age for consent.  If, in that state, 17 is legal then no...not heinous

Quoting Carpy:

The fact that she is 17 makes it heinous to you? Really? That really is not what I would call heinous. 17 is legal in most states and sorry, but their was clearly a signal sent there when she lets him sleep in her bed. At least he stopped. Now if you said 7 and he forced himself on her, then I could certainly agree.


mehamil1
by Platinum Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 2:51 PM

That is weird. Who are you hanging out with? Could it be a cultural thing? Here in Chicago we're all decently lazy about stuff like that. The show Hot in Cleaveland comes to mind. Those ladies were not hot in LA but were hot in Cleaveland. 

I have not come across a man who expressed an interest in what he wants women to wear. Vast majority just liked women in general. 

Quoting parentalrights1:
Everywhere I read and me. I've talked to have said they want girls to wear heels and tht they like the color "red" on women.

And some men have said they like the girls to look stylish
Quoting mehamil1:

I have learned the hard way that men find us attractive regardless (not all though). I have had many male friends say that sweatpants are hot. Old tshirts are hot. Unkempt hair is hot. So finally I asked "so it's women in general who are hot?" I got a resounding yes. So now I dress for me, so that I feel attractive for myself, not anyone else. Regardless, people will always react differently and most men would be more than willing to do me since I am biologically female. For too many, that's really the only necessity. Doesn't matter what she looks like. 

We are told to look a certain way "for men" by our media/society in order to sell stuff. It's been that way for as long as business has been around or if anyone had any kind of interest in trading something that's considered attractive. It's part of who we are as a species. However, vast majority of the time, at least in regards to most men, we don't need any of that. Hence why rape has nothing to do with what a woman is wearing and everything to do with the fact that she's female and perceived to be vulnerable. A rapist will pick out who he thinks will be the easiest target. Drunk women too often are the targets because of that vulnerability, doesn't matter what they are wearing. 

frogbender
by Captain Underpants on Mar. 25, 2013 at 3:07 PM
This.
Quoting mehamil1:

It's not about what a woman is wearing (or not wearing). There is no evidence to support that a woman is assaulted based on what she was wearing. Drunk, yes. But that's because rapists target women in vulnerable states knowing that if they get accused of rape charges will likely be dropped because his victim was drunk. These men, too many (not all) are predators and rely on rape culture to get away with what they are doing. A woman should be able to wear whatever she wants, get shit faced, and not have to worry about a predator raping her. 

When I was assaulted, it was the middle of the day, outside my house, and I was wearing the oldest sweat pants and the shirt I had on was stained with food and dirt (I had been gardening in the front yard). Piss ass didn't give a shit. He assaulted me anyway. I fought him off. To many women are not so lucky. 

We should be surprised if some jackass rapes a drunk woman. What kind of person does that? What kind of scum of the earth piece of shit human being rapes another human being in a vulnerable state? We should always be surprised and we should always put those pieces of human garbage in jail. 

Quoting jehosoba84:

 Maybe my thinking is a product of the society I live in.   But if I go out, dressed like a skank, get drunk among strangers.... I really shouldn't be surprised if I get taken advantage of. By that.. I don't mean forcible rape. I mean he's drunk, and I'm drunk. Things happen that I didn't want to happen. According to law, that is rape.   

 In my opinion, a woman can dress very classy/sexy without baring breasts and wearing mini skirts. That kind of clothing send a very clear message. Men are visually oriented, we all know this. So why do we as women dress the way we do (leaving nothing to the imagination) and then act all surprised when we get 'unwanted' attention from it?


MomofHDFandNWF
by Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 3:07 PM

You may say that the attitude I portrayed contributes to a rape culture - but, I think there are a lot more things that contribute to that culture more than my attitude...

Similar to what you said, if "nakedness" was not seen as something that is as sexualized as it is in our culture, I am sure that would help the rape culture. If boys were taught from a young age to respect women for who they are, not what they wear; it would help the rape culture.  If our "musicians" didn't make "music" talking about "giving it" to women; it would help the rape culture. It would be nice if all of our "what ifs" were possible.  But, unfortunately, I think for our society that "ship has sailed"... I don't see how to turn back the hands of time on that. 

Almost everything in today's society and today's culture is overtly sexualized... our youth and our young adults get so many mixed messages - both boys/men and girls/women alike.  Girls are taught that it is OK to dress and act however they want, and that men shouldn't take advantage of them.  Which is very correct; you will not get an argument out of me on that. Boys are taught (mostly not directly, but more inderectly) that a girl is "asking for it" by the way they dress, or how they act.  Look at "reality" shows like "Jersey Shore" or anything in that line, look at how the young men and young women are portrayed.

With the cultural "norm" of a sexualized female body, I will be teaching my daughter to be aware of not only what she wears, but also how she wears it and how she acts/portrays herself.  I wish I didn't have to do that; but until we discover this Utopian society you talk about, I don't see any other alternative...

As far as clothing not leading to sexual assult, I agree with you on that as well -- I am the vicitim of what started off as sexual assault (and grew into sexual abuse because of the repeated occurances) - I never wore anything that (in my mind) would have been "asking for it".

Quoting mehamil1:

Do you see how that attitude towards how women dress contributes to rape culture? I'm speaking in general, not accusing you of anything. 

What if our society had no real stance of whatever a woman (or man for that matter) is wearing? What if many of us walked around naked weather permitting and no one thought anything of it? What if women could go into a any establishment wearing whatever she wanted to wear that day because she felt like it and no one bat an eye at it because there was no prevailing cultural attitude towards clothing and how we wear it? 

I know this world does not exit. But we can work to push for that kind of world. To see women and how they are dressed and really nothing to talk about, bat an eye at, or judge. What we wear is something we decide when we get up in the morning or go out for the evening. 

These cultural attitudes towards skimpy clothing is what keeps rape culture and victim blaming alive. Most of us can all agree that no one should be raped for what they are wearing but there's still that little voice that we keeping giving a microphone to, that she should not have dressed that way and then she wouldn't have become a target. Which just is not true and is not supported by any kind of statistical evidence. Clothing does not cause sexual assault. It just doesn't. But our cultural attitudes towards women and our bodies and how we decorate them whichever way we deem, does contribute to sexual assault. Societies that are more egalitarian where there isn't a high level of sexism and judgement towards women and what they wear have lower incidences of sexual assault. That is a sociological fact supported by a lot of data. 

Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

I followed your whole line of thinking... and I agree with you.  Like you said, it does not give teh man permission to rape her, but I think the choices women and men make in a bar setting definitely can lead to "issues" that would not happen in a scenario where people were not drunk and letting it "all hang out" - FWIW.

Quoting jehosoba84:

 I said they're asking for unwanted attention. I think that the way you dress and act with your body (baring all and rubbing up against them) clearly says you're open to idea of sex. Unless she says No.  The things I've said relate more to a scene in a bar/etc with people getting drunk. I'm not referring to random assaults and forcible rape.

Quoting ReadWriteLuv:

Don't backpeddle. You said that anyone who dresses in that fashion is asking to be raped. So, if your friend in your instance had actually been raped, not danced with, by your line of thinking it would be her fault. 

Quoting jehosoba8


Carpy
by Ruby Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 3:11 PM
Rape is a crime of violence with sex as the weapon. It won't end most rapes.

Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

You may say that the attitude I portrayed contributes to a rape culture - but, I think there are a lot more things that contribute to that culture more than my attitude...

Similar to what you said, if "nakedness" was not seen as something that is as sexualized as it is in our culture, I am sure that would help the rape culture. If boys were taught from a young age to respect women for who they are, not what they wear; it would help the rape culture.  If our "musicians" didn't make "music" talking about "giving it" to women; it would help the rape culture. It would be nice if all of our "what ifs" were possible.  But, unfortunately, I think for our society that "ship has sailed"... I don't see how to turn back the hands of time on that. 

Almost everything in today's society and today's culture is overtly sexualized... our youth and our young adults get so many mixed messages - both boys/men and girls/women alike.  Girls are taught that it is OK to dress and act however they want, and that men shouldn't take advantage of them.  Which is very correct; you will not get an argument out of me on that. Boys are taught (mostly not directly, but more inderectly) that a girl is "asking for it" by the way they dress, or how they act.  Look at "reality" shows like "Jersey Shore" or anything in that line, look at how the young men and young women are portrayed.

With the cultural "norm" of a sexualized female body, I will be teaching my daughter to be aware of not only what she wears, but also how she wears it and how she acts/portrays herself.  I wish I didn't have to do that; but until we discover this Utopian society you talk about, I don't see any other alternative...

As far as clothing not leading to sexual assult, I agree with you on that as well -- I am the vicitim of what started off as sexual assault (and grew into sexual abuse because of the repeated occurances) - I never wore anything that (in my mind) would have been "asking for it".

Quoting mehamil1:

Do you see how that attitude towards how women dress contributes to rape culture? I'm speaking in general, not accusing you of anything. 

What if our society had no real stance of whatever a woman (or man for that matter) is wearing? What if many of us walked around naked weather permitting and no one thought anything of it? What if women could go into a any establishment wearing whatever she wanted to wear that day because she felt like it and no one bat an eye at it because there was no prevailing cultural attitude towards clothing and how we wear it? 

I know this world does not exit. But we can work to push for that kind of world. To see women and how they are dressed and really nothing to talk about, bat an eye at, or judge. What we wear is something we decide when we get up in the morning or go out for the evening. 

These cultural attitudes towards skimpy clothing is what keeps rape culture and victim blaming alive. Most of us can all agree that no one should be raped for what they are wearing but there's still that little voice that we keeping giving a microphone to, that she should not have dressed that way and then she wouldn't have become a target. Which just is not true and is not supported by any kind of statistical evidence. Clothing does not cause sexual assault. It just doesn't. But our cultural attitudes towards women and our bodies and how we decorate them whichever way we deem, does contribute to sexual assault. Societies that are more egalitarian where there isn't a high level of sexism and judgement towards women and what they wear have lower incidences of sexual assault. That is a sociological fact supported by a lot of data. 


Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

I followed your whole line of thinking... and I agree with you.  Like you said, it does not give teh man permission to rape her, but I think the choices women and men make in a bar setting definitely can lead to "issues" that would not happen in a scenario where people were not drunk and letting it "all hang out" - FWIW.

Quoting jehosoba84:

 I said they're asking for unwanted attention. I think that the way you dress and act with your body (baring all and rubbing up against them) clearly says you're open to idea of sex. Unless she says No.  The things I've said relate more to a scene in a bar/etc with people getting drunk. I'm not referring to random assaults and forcible rape.


Quoting ReadWriteLuv:

Don't backpeddle. You said that anyone who dresses in that fashion is asking to be raped. So, if your friend in your instance had actually been raped, not danced with, by your line of thinking it would be her fault. 


Quoting jehosoba8


Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
parentalrights1
by on Mar. 25, 2013 at 3:18 PM
You have to be the change you want to see. That's how society has changed many things. Enough people realized how wrong something was and started working for change as well as raising children with better attitudes. The change may be slow but it is possible if people don't just throw their hands up and do nothing to help


Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

You may say that the attitude I portrayed contributes to a rape culture - but, I think there are a lot more things that contribute to that culture more than my attitude...

Similar to what you said, if "nakedness" was not seen as something that is as sexualized as it is in our culture, I am sure that would help the rape culture. If boys were taught from a young age to respect women for who they are, not what they wear; it would help the rape culture.  If our "musicians" didn't make "music" talking about "giving it" to women; it would help the rape culture. It would be nice if all of our "what ifs" were possible.  But, unfortunately, I think for our society that "ship has sailed"... I don't see how to turn back the hands of time on that. 

Almost everything in today's society and today's culture is overtly sexualized... our youth and our young adults get so many mixed messages - both boys/men and girls/women alike.  Girls are taught that it is OK to dress and act however they want, and that men shouldn't take advantage of them.  Which is very correct; you will not get an argument out of me on that. Boys are taught (mostly not directly, but more inderectly) that a girl is "asking for it" by the way they dress, or how they act.  Look at "reality" shows like "Jersey Shore" or anything in that line, look at how the young men and young women are portrayed.

With the cultural "norm" of a sexualized female body, I will be teaching my daughter to be aware of not only what she wears, but also how she wears it and how she acts/portrays herself.  I wish I didn't have to do that; but until we discover this Utopian society you talk about, I don't see any other alternative...

As far as clothing not leading to sexual assult, I agree with you on that as well -- I am the vicitim of what started off as sexual assault (and grew into sexual abuse because of the repeated occurances) - I never wore anything that (in my mind) would have been "asking for it".

Quoting mehamil1:

Do you see how that attitude towards how women dress contributes to rape culture? I'm speaking in general, not accusing you of anything. 

What if our society had no real stance of whatever a woman (or man for that matter) is wearing? What if many of us walked around naked weather permitting and no one thought anything of it? What if women could go into a any establishment wearing whatever she wanted to wear that day because she felt like it and no one bat an eye at it because there was no prevailing cultural attitude towards clothing and how we wear it? 

I know this world does not exit. But we can work to push for that kind of world. To see women and how they are dressed and really nothing to talk about, bat an eye at, or judge. What we wear is something we decide when we get up in the morning or go out for the evening. 

These cultural attitudes towards skimpy clothing is what keeps rape culture and victim blaming alive. Most of us can all agree that no one should be raped for what they are wearing but there's still that little voice that we keeping giving a microphone to, that she should not have dressed that way and then she wouldn't have become a target. Which just is not true and is not supported by any kind of statistical evidence. Clothing does not cause sexual assault. It just doesn't. But our cultural attitudes towards women and our bodies and how we decorate them whichever way we deem, does contribute to sexual assault. Societies that are more egalitarian where there isn't a high level of sexism and judgement towards women and what they wear have lower incidences of sexual assault. That is a sociological fact supported by a lot of data. 


Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

I followed your whole line of thinking... and I agree with you.  Like you said, it does not give teh man permission to rape her, but I think the choices women and men make in a bar setting definitely can lead to "issues" that would not happen in a scenario where people were not drunk and letting it "all hang out" - FWIW.

Quoting jehosoba84:

 I said they're asking for unwanted attention. I think that the way you dress and act with your body (baring all and rubbing up against them) clearly says you're open to idea of sex. Unless she says No.  The things I've said relate more to a scene in a bar/etc with people getting drunk. I'm not referring to random assaults and forcible rape.


Quoting ReadWriteLuv:

Don't backpeddle. You said that anyone who dresses in that fashion is asking to be raped. So, if your friend in your instance had actually been raped, not danced with, by your line of thinking it would be her fault. 


Quoting jehosoba8



Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
jehosoba84
by Jenn on Mar. 25, 2013 at 3:23 PM
1 mom liked this

 

Quoting jehosoba84:

 

But the way women dress these days...Don't you see that you're inviting the wrong kind of attention? And don't women have any sort of self-preservation, getting drunk/high/etc with people they don't know? Where is their sense of personal responsiblity? No, it does not mean that they 'deserve' it. But they are asking for it.

 

 I apologize for this specific comment to any it may have personally offended. I should not have said that any woman was 'asking for it.'     

*wish I could mass quote everyone*

katzmeow726
by Platinum Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 3:28 PM

In othe rwords, you believe men are incapable of self control?

 

Quoting jehosoba84:

 Maybe my thinking is a product of the society I live in.   But if I go out, dressed like a skank, get drunk among strangers.... I really shouldn't be surprised if I get taken advantage of. By that.. I don't mean forcible rape. I mean he's drunk, and I'm drunk. Things happen that I didn't want to happen. According to law, that is rape.   

 In my opinion, a woman can dress very classy/sexy without baring breasts and wearing mini skirts. That kind of clothing send a very clear message. Men are visually oriented, we all know this. So why do we as women dress the way we do (leaving nothing to the imagination) and then act all surprised when we get 'unwanted' attention from it?


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MomofHDFandNWF
by Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 4:39 PM
1 mom liked this

You're right -- it won't.  Those men (and women) who are rapists do not do it strictly for the sexual aspect of it.  You are not going to hear any arguments from me about that.... again, I wasn't dressed "sexy" when it happened to me. 

But, I do think there are plenty of women that put themselves "on display" when they go out (sometimes by the way the dress or act) and draw undue attention to themselves.  Changing how they dress/act will not prevent a rape in most instances; but it can prevent the "average Joe" from getting the wrong idea.  Which, at times (again, not all the time...) can then turn into rape.  This scenario I think is particularly true when one (or both) of the parties are inebriated and in a bar/club "hook-up" scenario.  This obviously is not the case in rapes that are done by a serial rapist or stalker...

Quoting Carpy:

Rape is a crime of violence with sex as the weapon. It won't end most rapes.

Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

You may say that the attitude I portrayed contributes to a rape culture - but, I think there are a lot more things that contribute to that culture more than my attitude...

Similar to what you said, if "nakedness" was not seen as something that is as sexualized as it is in our culture, I am sure that would help the rape culture. If boys were taught from a young age to respect women for who they are, not what they wear; it would help the rape culture.  If our "musicians" didn't make "music" talking about "giving it" to women; it would help the rape culture. It would be nice if all of our "what ifs" were possible.  But, unfortunately, I think for our society that "ship has sailed"... I don't see how to turn back the hands of time on that. 

Almost everything in today's society and today's culture is overtly sexualized... our youth and our young adults get so many mixed messages - both boys/men and girls/women alike.  Girls are taught that it is OK to dress and act however they want, and that men shouldn't take advantage of them.  Which is very correct; you will not get an argument out of me on that. Boys are taught (mostly not directly, but more inderectly) that a girl is "asking for it" by the way they dress, or how they act.  Look at "reality" shows like "Jersey Shore" or anything in that line, look at how the young men and young women are portrayed.

With the cultural "norm" of a sexualized female body, I will be teaching my daughter to be aware of not only what she wears, but also how she wears it and how she acts/portrays herself.  I wish I didn't have to do that; but until we discover this Utopian society you talk about, I don't see any other alternative...

As far as clothing not leading to sexual assult, I agree with you on that as well -- I am the vicitim of what started off as sexual assault (and grew into sexual abuse because of the repeated occurances) - I never wore anything that (in my mind) would have been "asking for it".

Quoting mehamil1:

Do you see how that attitude towards how women dress contributes to rape culture? I'm speaking in general, not accusing you of anything. 

What if our society had no real stance of whatever a woman (or man for that matter) is wearing? What if many of us walked around naked weather permitting and no one thought anything of it? What if women could go into a any establishment wearing whatever she wanted to wear that day because she felt like it and no one bat an eye at it because there was no prevailing cultural attitude towards clothing and how we wear it? 

I know this world does not exit. But we can work to push for that kind of world. To see women and how they are dressed and really nothing to talk about, bat an eye at, or judge. What we wear is something we decide when we get up in the morning or go out for the evening. 

These cultural attitudes towards skimpy clothing is what keeps rape culture and victim blaming alive. Most of us can all agree that no one should be raped for what they are wearing but there's still that little voice that we keeping giving a microphone to, that she should not have dressed that way and then she wouldn't have become a target. Which just is not true and is not supported by any kind of statistical evidence. Clothing does not cause sexual assault. It just doesn't. But our cultural attitudes towards women and our bodies and how we decorate them whichever way we deem, does contribute to sexual assault. Societies that are more egalitarian where there isn't a high level of sexism and judgement towards women and what they wear have lower incidences of sexual assault. That is a sociological fact supported by a lot of data. 


Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

I followed your whole line of thinking... and I agree with you.  Like you said, it does not give teh man permission to rape her, but I think the choices women and men make in a bar setting definitely can lead to "issues" that would not happen in a scenario where people were not drunk and letting it "all hang out" - FWIW.

Quoting jehosoba84:

 I said they're asking for unwanted attention. I think that the way you dress and act with your body (baring all and rubbing up against them) clearly says you're open to idea of sex. Unless she says No.  The things I've said relate more to a scene in a bar/etc with people getting drunk. I'm not referring to random assaults and forcible rape.


Quoting ReadWriteLuv:

Don't backpeddle. You said that anyone who dresses in that fashion is asking to be raped. So, if your friend in your instance had actually been raped, not danced with, by your line of thinking it would be her fault. 


Quoting jehosoba8



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