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U.S. Gov. Fighting to deny Asylum to German Homeschool

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Still having problems with CM's site. I heard about this on the news a day ago. I found this very interesting. A German family came over to the U.S. so they can homeschool their children. In Germany the Gov. probids homeschooling in most cases. In Germany their reasons appears to be that the Gov. wants to prohibit people who think differently from the Gov. on religious or philosophical grounds (from growing & developing into a force in society). Our Gov. only will let someone stay here if they have fear of danger in their own Country. Here's a few articles on this case. What are your thoughts? http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/u.s.-government-fighting-to-deny-asylum-to-german-homeschool-family http://www.hslda.org/does/news/2013/201302110.asp
by on Mar. 25, 2013 at 1:20 PM
Replies (41-50):
Donna6503
by Platinum Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 4:39 PM
It's just a disagreement ... We tend to agree on a lot of issue. I feel we just differ here on the amount of degree.




Quoting autodidact:


My point was that I disagree and think that most people understand that the Bill of Rights is a document of United States government. And as I mentioned before Germany does in fact guarantee freedom of religion in their constitution.

The family's case is being discussed in a court that's what the asylum cases about. I disagree that they qualify merely because their country doesn't allow them to homeschool.


Quoting Donna6503:

While, I do tend to agree with you ... I feel that this family, does indeed have enough of a legal disconcertion for a court to settle this legal matter.



I know that you understand what the Bill of Rights are in the states.



I originally stated that, "... not many people realize that Europe doesn't have a 'bill of rights." I'll stand on that assertion, a lot of people here don't even know that the Bill of Rights are the first ten amendments that you've already pointed out.



Honestly, I'm not understanding your point. If I didn't make my point clearly, I'll apologize right now.





Quoting autodidact:

No actually Bill of Rights refers to the first 10 amendments to our Constitution. I don't need a lesson on the Bill of Rights thank you.

Religious freedom is not the basis for homeschooling.  Homeschooling isn't based in religion, and many nonreligious people homeschool.

Article 4 of German basic law, or their constitution, does in  fact grant freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is not the issue here and this  German family was not being persecuted, religiously or otherwise.



Quoting Donna6503:

Again, when we in the states say, "Bill of Rights," it is basically a verbal shorthand for a whole sets of rights that we link together.





Those rights are generally taken as granted here in the states; yet, most people think that countries that are generally considered free societies accept those rights as given ... But it isn't the case.





Religious homeschooling, is accepted here; because of the notion of "free exercise of religion" and "free association" and to a certain extent the ten amendment too.





But, Germany doesn't grant those, "what we consider here a very fundamental right." While, on the surface, it doesn't seem appropriate for this claim to go through ... I do believe this family has a legal and constitutional to make their claim for asylum .. All because we view such rights to be very innate to our culture.








Quoting autodidact:


I didn't ask Why it was in quotes, I was questioning your assertion that most people think the Bill of Rights is universally applicable.

I understand that rights vary from country to country, what I don't understand is what any of this has to do with homeschooling or considering homeschoolers a persecuted class qualifying for asylum.




Quoting Donna6503:

The reason why it is in quotation marks is because, the notion that "free speech," "free associations," "free press," "etc., isn't as fundamental as a right in Europe as it is here in the states.







Hard to explain, but the there is a difference in regards to a right than what is compared to here in the US











Quoting autodidact:


Um . . .  what? What does the Bill of Rights have to do with it? And actually I think most people are aware that the Bill of Rights is United States document not one which is applicable to the entire world.





Quoting Donna6503:

Not very many people realize that Europe doesn't have a "Bill of Rights" like we do, here in the "Land of Round Doorknobs."





































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Raintree
by Ruby Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 4:45 PM

Many illegal aliens come here legally and get lost in our screwed up immigration system- which lets THEM down. "Sure, you can come in! Oh!  We're behind on the paperwork, I guess you're screwed then! Bye! Come back later!" says our bureaucracy. But not every immigrant has the luxury of going back and forth trying to get in. Some get stuck here because they dont have the funds for the back and forth- I've actually seen that happen.

Also, illegal aliens are actively courted to come here for low-wage jobs- we've been over this before. That isn't what this thread is about, though. 

They probably don't want to "just stay", because they're used to a higher standard of living than they'd have if they were to go under the radar and work nights cleaning WalMart, or down at the slaughter house.

Quoting Naturewoman4:

Ok, I guess I understand this. Then this family needs to go through the proper channels to become a citizen here. I get that, yet why then is there millions of illegals here from all over the World & yet they are not a citizen. Point is, then why doesn't this family just do the same? Would they have to return to Germany & apply there FIRST to become a citizen of this Country, BEFORE coming back here? I believe I heard that there are only so many visas or temp. visas that can be issued per yr. in our Country. If one doesn't have a visa or temp visa, then they are told they need to go back to their Country. Then I have to wonder, why not just do what so many others have done, just stay anyway? That way this family can homeschool their kids here, teaching them what THEY want to teach their children.
Quoting Raintree:

No.

Germany has a very high standard of living. There is no 'fear for life' involved, and until home schooling becomes a protected class- they haven't got a case. There are home schoolers that are pretty rabid about what they do- I'm pretty sure that is the type of person behind this story. 

They're free to come here if they want to go through immigration the correct way- not just the "we're persecuted in Germany!" kind of way. Not every country can send 'refugee status' immigrants. Germany isn't one of them.

Quoting Naturewoman4:

Yes, that was my thought as well. But, then my question would be how is it that some are able to stay here in the U.S. & others aren't. Is it because those that come here are in fear for their life. If people come to this Country for the sole purpose of having a better life & providing a better life for their children, wouldn't this fit into the same category? Just curious does Holder always get involved in fighting asylum for some or all? There is a lot of people that come to this Country, because of all the freedom we have here. Not solely because they are in fear of their life where they came from. So, what makes this case any different?
Quoting Raintree:


Quoting Naturewoman4:

The writer of this article wanted to have insight on our own Gov. views towards the rights of homeschooling parents in general.  The U.S. law of asylum allows a refugee to stay in the U.S. permanently if he can show that he/she is being persecuted for one of several specific reasons.  Among these are persecution for 'religious' reasons & persecution of a "particular social group".  It is thought control of its people.  Belief control.  It is totalitarianism dressed up in politically correct lingo.  (according to the writer of this article). 

I'm assuming that the government acknowledges persecution only when it threatens life or comes close to that. Which this does not.

Persecution as a word has been used and flattened out to mean everything from not hearing Merry Christmas at Target the day after Thanksgiving to all out genocide of a specific ethnic group.

I don't think that homeschooling fits into a protected group as of yet- in terms of human rights. If they want to homeschool they should work on changing the laws in Germany.





Raintree
by Ruby Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 4:49 PM

They are. Deportations are way up over rates in the early 2000s.

Quoting DragonMother10:

Because illegals will lie to the system. I live in a bordertown and seen/heard many Mexicans lying in order to stay here. A lot of them don't get caught or have yet to be caught. The government should really do something about it though.


Quoting Naturewoman4:

Thank-You DragonMother, that would be interesting to hear what your husband has to say or any knowledge he may have in this case. I do understand about the point that this family has nothing to fear for their safety in Germany. But, that also means they aren't able to homeschool their children. Because, if they did they would be fined, put in jail, or even lose their children. I'm sure they have a Lawyer that deals with these issues, so they must feel they have a legitmate case to win. If it costs so much to come here & be a permanent residence & a legal citizen, how is it so many illegals from all over the WORLD are here still? I hear of some that are illegal yet they have been able to work in higher level jobs. Some as journalist. They probably make pretty good money now, so I was wondering why they never became a legal citizen of this Country. Therefore, I was wondering why this family just don't do the same. They should of known ahead of time before coming, where the U.S. stands on this. I just feel sorry for them, because in our Country we have those freedoms to homeschool our kids. Pulling them out of public schools, because of the violence, bullying, or just not liking the way our public schools are teaching our children. This issue is VERY important for parents wanting to raise their kids for which they believe is the best way possible. Whether it is even for religious reasons, parents should be able to do this.




Quoting DragonMother10:

I don't know. I will ask my husband exactly the deal with homeschooling. It just doesn't seem a valid reason to leave Germany and make it seem like they are living in fear. It is possible since it costs a lot of money to come here as a permanent residence, that they are trying to find an easier way to come to the U.S. They have to become permanent residents before becoming legal citizens. They have to prove to the U.S. government that they are worthy of becoming citizens. It will take a few more years or so.





Quoting Naturewoman4:

Thank-You for your post, I was hoping to get others that came here from Germany or even any other Countries. So, then I was not understanding I guess, why this family specifically is being fought by our Gov./Holder to send them back? I wonder if this family has started the process to become a legal citizen here.








Quoting DragonMother10:

My husband is originally from Germany and he was one of those people that sometimes went against the government or argued with them. He came to this country LEGALLY, even though it took him 7 years. In some ways Germany is better than the U.S., and vice versa. It's not that horrible to live there to live in fear, it's no longer Nazi Germany. My husband didn't live in fear, just didn't agree with the.government all the time. Plus his family lives here and wanted to be closer to them.









luvbooks
by on Mar. 25, 2013 at 4:52 PM

 I'm not familiar with this case at all but I would assume that it is because they are applying for asylum and they are not going through the normal immigration system.


Quoting Naturewoman4:

Yes, that was my thought as well. But, then my question would be how is it that some are able to stay here in the U.S. & others aren't. Is it because those that come here are in fear for their life. If people come to this Country for the sole purpose of having a better life & providing a better life for their children, wouldn't this fit into the same category? Just curious does Holder always get involved in fighting asylum for some or all? There is a lot of people that come to this Country, because of all the freedom we have here. Not solely because they are in fear of their life where they came from. So, what makes this case any different?
Quoting Raintree:


Quoting Naturewoman4:

The writer of this article wanted to have insight on our own Gov. views towards the rights of homeschooling parents in general.  The U.S. law of asylum allows a refugee to stay in the U.S. permanently if he can show that he/she is being persecuted for one of several specific reasons.  Among these are persecution for 'religious' reasons & persecution of a "particular social group".  It is thought control of its people.  Belief control.  It is totalitarianism dressed up in politically correct lingo.  (according to the writer of this article). 

I'm assuming that the government acknowledges persecution only when it threatens life or comes close to that. Which this does not.

Persecution as a word has been used and flattened out to mean everything from not hearing Merry Christmas at Target the day after Thanksgiving to all out genocide of a specific ethnic group.

I don't think that homeschooling fits into a protected group as of yet- in terms of human rights. If they want to homeschool they should work on changing the laws in Germany.



 

Naturewoman4
by Platinum Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 5:00 PM
I understand what you are saying. What I was trying to say was if this German family is not allowed to get an asylum here, then why not just do what a lot of other illegal immigrants do, just stay here anyway. Seems, they were trying to do it legally. If our Gov. denys the asylum, then this family should just stay here anyway, therefore they can homeschool there kids here. Just get lost somewhere in the U.S. & live their lives here, the same way a lot of others are doing that now. Somehow all these millions of illegals that come from ALL over the WORLD, are working at jobs, making a life here for their families. Because, I'm sure all the illegals that are here are not suppose to be here. But, who's checking. I guess, I just don't see the problem. Why this family even had to try to get asylum in the first place. I'm sure they were just trying to do it legally. Maybe, there will be a way this family can stay here & start the process to become a legal citizen of this Country.
Quoting Raintree:

Many illegal aliens come here legally and get lost in our screwed up immigration system- which lets THEM down. "Sure, you can come in! Oh!  We're behind on the paperwork, I guess you're screwed then! Bye! Come back later!" says our bureaucracy. But not every immigrant has the luxury of going back and forth trying to get in. Some get stuck here because they dont have the funds for the back and forth- I've actually seen that happen.

Also, illegal aliens are actively courted to come here for low-wage jobs- we've been over this before. That isn't what this thread is about, though. 

They probably don't want to "just stay", because they're used to a higher standard of living than they'd have if they were to go under the radar and work nights cleaning WalMart, or down at the slaughter house.

Quoting Naturewoman4:

Ok, I guess I understand this. Then this family needs to go through the proper channels to become a citizen here. I get that, yet why then is there millions of illegals here from all over the World & yet they are not a citizen. Point is, then why doesn't this family just do the same? Would they have to return to Germany & apply there FIRST to become a citizen of this Country, BEFORE coming back here? I believe I heard that there are only so many visas or temp. visas that can be issued per yr. in our Country. If one doesn't have a visa or temp visa, then they are told they need to go back to their Country. Then I have to wonder, why not just do what so many others have done, just stay anyway? That way this family can homeschool their kids here, teaching them what THEY want to teach their children.
Quoting Raintree:

No.

Germany has a very high standard of living. There is no 'fear for life' involved, and until home schooling becomes a protected class- they haven't got a case. There are home schoolers that are pretty rabid about what they do- I'm pretty sure that is the type of person behind this story. 

They're free to come here if they want to go through immigration the correct way- not just the "we're persecuted in Germany!" kind of way. Not every country can send 'refugee status' immigrants. Germany isn't one of them.

Quoting Naturewoman4:

Yes, that was my thought as well. But, then my question would be how is it that some are able to stay here in the U.S. & others aren't. Is it because those that come here are in fear for their life. If people come to this Country for the sole purpose of having a better life & providing a better life for their children, wouldn't this fit into the same category? Just curious does Holder always get involved in fighting asylum for some or all? There is a lot of people that come to this Country, because of all the freedom we have here. Not solely because they are in fear of their life where they came from. So, what makes this case any different?
Quoting Raintree:


Quoting Naturewoman4:

The writer of this article wanted to have insight on our own Gov. views towards the rights of homeschooling parents in general.  The U.S. law of asylum allows a refugee to stay in the U.S. permanently if he can show that he/she is being persecuted for one of several specific reasons.  Among these are persecution for 'religious' reasons & persecution of a "particular social group".  It is thought control of its people.  Belief control.  It is totalitarianism dressed up in politically correct lingo.  (according to the writer of this article). 

I'm assuming that the government acknowledges persecution only when it threatens life or comes close to that. Which this does not.

Persecution as a word has been used and flattened out to mean everything from not hearing Merry Christmas at Target the day after Thanksgiving to all out genocide of a specific ethnic group.

I don't think that homeschooling fits into a protected group as of yet- in terms of human rights. If they want to homeschool they should work on changing the laws in Germany.






Naturewoman4
by Platinum Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 5:05 PM
Yes, it is true that there is more deportations under Obama's Admin. But, I read where 1M are still coming into our Country illegally every yr. So, the numbers that has been deported, immo, doesn't really mean anything when our borders are not protected, therefore the numbers are even higher that are still coming here.
Quoting Raintree:

They are. Deportations are way up over rates in the early 2000s.

Quoting DragonMother10:

Because illegals will lie to the system. I live in a bordertown and seen/heard many Mexicans lying in order to stay here. A lot of them don't get caught or have yet to be caught. The government should really do something about it though.


Quoting Naturewoman4:

Thank-You DragonMother, that would be interesting to hear what your husband has to say or any knowledge he may have in this case. I do understand about the point that this family has nothing to fear for their safety in Germany. But, that also means they aren't able to homeschool their children. Because, if they did they would be fined, put in jail, or even lose their children. I'm sure they have a Lawyer that deals with these issues, so they must feel they have a legitmate case to win. If it costs so much to come here & be a permanent residence & a legal citizen, how is it so many illegals from all over the WORLD are here still? I hear of some that are illegal yet they have been able to work in higher level jobs. Some as journalist. They probably make pretty good money now, so I was wondering why they never became a legal citizen of this Country. Therefore, I was wondering why this family just don't do the same. They should of known ahead of time before coming, where the U.S. stands on this. I just feel sorry for them, because in our Country we have those freedoms to homeschool our kids. Pulling them out of public schools, because of the violence, bullying, or just not liking the way our public schools are teaching our children. This issue is VERY important for parents wanting to raise their kids for which they believe is the best way possible. Whether it is even for religious reasons, parents should be able to do this.




Quoting DragonMother10:

I don't know. I will ask my husband exactly the deal with homeschooling. It just doesn't seem a valid reason to leave Germany and make it seem like they are living in fear. It is possible since it costs a lot of money to come here as a permanent residence, that they are trying to find an easier way to come to the U.S. They have to become permanent residents before becoming legal citizens. They have to prove to the U.S. government that they are worthy of becoming citizens. It will take a few more years or so.





Quoting Naturewoman4:

Thank-You for your post, I was hoping to get others that came here from Germany or even any other Countries. So, then I was not understanding I guess, why this family specifically is being fought by our Gov./Holder to send them back? I wonder if this family has started the process to become a legal citizen here.








Quoting DragonMother10:

My husband is originally from Germany and he was one of those people that sometimes went against the government or argued with them. He came to this country LEGALLY, even though it took him 7 years. In some ways Germany is better than the U.S., and vice versa. It's not that horrible to live there to live in fear, it's no longer Nazi Germany. My husband didn't live in fear, just didn't agree with the.government all the time. Plus his family lives here and wanted to be closer to them.










autodidact
by Platinum Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 5:11 PM


Did this family enter the US legally? Have they overstayed work or vacation visas?

Quoting Naturewoman4:

Yes, it is true that there is more deportations under Obama's Admin. But, I read where 1M are still coming into our Country illegally every yr. So, the numbers that has been deported, immo, doesn't really mean anything when our borders are not protected, therefore the numbers are even higher that are still coming here.
Quoting Raintree:

They are. Deportations are way up over rates in the early 2000s.

Quoting DragonMother10:

Because illegals will lie to the system. I live in a bordertown and seen/heard many Mexicans lying in order to stay here. A lot of them don't get caught or have yet to be caught. The government should really do something about it though.


Quoting Naturewoman4:

Thank-You DragonMother, that would be interesting to hear what your husband has to say or any knowledge he may have in this case. I do understand about the point that this family has nothing to fear for their safety in Germany. But, that also means they aren't able to homeschool their children. Because, if they did they would be fined, put in jail, or even lose their children. I'm sure they have a Lawyer that deals with these issues, so they must feel they have a legitmate case to win. If it costs so much to come here & be a permanent residence & a legal citizen, how is it so many illegals from all over the WORLD are here still? I hear of some that are illegal yet they have been able to work in higher level jobs. Some as journalist. They probably make pretty good money now, so I was wondering why they never became a legal citizen of this Country. Therefore, I was wondering why this family just don't do the same. They should of known ahead of time before coming, where the U.S. stands on this. I just feel sorry for them, because in our Country we have those freedoms to homeschool our kids. Pulling them out of public schools, because of the violence, bullying, or just not liking the way our public schools are teaching our children. This issue is VERY important for parents wanting to raise their kids for which they believe is the best way possible. Whether it is even for religious reasons, parents should be able to do this.




Quoting DragonMother10:

I don't know. I will ask my husband exactly the deal with homeschooling. It just doesn't seem a valid reason to leave Germany and make it seem like they are living in fear. It is possible since it costs a lot of money to come here as a permanent residence, that they are trying to find an easier way to come to the U.S. They have to become permanent residents before becoming legal citizens. They have to prove to the U.S. government that they are worthy of becoming citizens. It will take a few more years or so.





Quoting Naturewoman4:

Thank-You for your post, I was hoping to get others that came here from Germany or even any other Countries. So, then I was not understanding I guess, why this family specifically is being fought by our Gov./Holder to send them back? I wonder if this family has started the process to become a legal citizen here.








Quoting DragonMother10:

My husband is originally from Germany and he was one of those people that sometimes went against the government or argued with them. He came to this country LEGALLY, even though it took him 7 years. In some ways Germany is better than the U.S., and vice versa. It's not that horrible to live there to live in fear, it's no longer Nazi Germany. My husband didn't live in fear, just didn't agree with the.government all the time. Plus his family lives here and wanted to be closer to them.















Raintree
by Ruby Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 5:12 PM

I already explained what I've highlighted in red.

They're used to a higher standard of living than they would have if they were staying here illegally. 

They weren't trying to come here legally, they were trying to come here easily

Quoting Naturewoman4:

I understand what you are saying. What I was trying to say was if this German family is not allowed to get an asylum here, then why not just do what a lot of other illegal immigrants do, just stay here anyway. Seems, they were trying to do it legally. If our Gov. denys the asylum, then this family should just stay here anyway, therefore they can homeschool there kids here. Just get lost somewhere in the U.S. & live their lives here, the same way a lot of others are doing that now. Somehow all these millions of illegals that come from ALL over the WORLD, are working at jobs, making a life here for their families. Because, I'm sure all the illegals that are here are not suppose to be here. But, who's checking. I guess, I just don't see the problem. Why this family even had to try to get asylum in the first place. I'm sure they were just trying to do it legally. Maybe, there will be a way this family can stay here & start the process to become a legal citizen of this Country.
Quoting Raintree:

Many illegal aliens come here legally and get lost in our screwed up immigration system- which lets THEM down. "Sure, you can come in! Oh!  We're behind on the paperwork, I guess you're screwed then! Bye! Come back later!" says our bureaucracy. But not every immigrant has the luxury of going back and forth trying to get in. Some get stuck here because they dont have the funds for the back and forth- I've actually seen that happen.

Also, illegal aliens are actively courted to come here for low-wage jobs- we've been over this before. That isn't what this thread is about, though. 

They probably don't want to "just stay", because they're used to a higher standard of living than they'd have if they were to go under the radar and work nights cleaning WalMart, or down at the slaughter house.

Quoting Naturewoman4:

Ok, I guess I understand this. Then this family needs to go through the proper channels to become a citizen here. I get that, yet why then is there millions of illegals here from all over the World & yet they are not a citizen. Point is, then why doesn't this family just do the same? Would they have to return to Germany & apply there FIRST to become a citizen of this Country, BEFORE coming back here? I believe I heard that there are only so many visas or temp. visas that can be issued per yr. in our Country. If one doesn't have a visa or temp visa, then they are told they need to go back to their Country. Then I have to wonder, why not just do what so many others have done, just stay anyway? That way this family can homeschool their kids here, teaching them what THEY want to teach their children.
Quoting Raintree:

No.

Germany has a very high standard of living. There is no 'fear for life' involved, and until home schooling becomes a protected class- they haven't got a case. There are home schoolers that are pretty rabid about what they do- I'm pretty sure that is the type of person behind this story. 

They're free to come here if they want to go through immigration the correct way- not just the "we're persecuted in Germany!" kind of way. Not every country can send 'refugee status' immigrants. Germany isn't one of them.

Quoting Naturewoman4:

Yes, that was my thought as well. But, then my question would be how is it that some are able to stay here in the U.S. & others aren't. Is it because those that come here are in fear for their life. If people come to this Country for the sole purpose of having a better life & providing a better life for their children, wouldn't this fit into the same category? Just curious does Holder always get involved in fighting asylum for some or all? There is a lot of people that come to this Country, because of all the freedom we have here. Not solely because they are in fear of their life where they came from. So, what makes this case any different?
Quoting Raintree:


Quoting Naturewoman4:

The writer of this article wanted to have insight on our own Gov. views towards the rights of homeschooling parents in general.  The U.S. law of asylum allows a refugee to stay in the U.S. permanently if he can show that he/she is being persecuted for one of several specific reasons.  Among these are persecution for 'religious' reasons & persecution of a "particular social group".  It is thought control of its people.  Belief control.  It is totalitarianism dressed up in politically correct lingo.  (according to the writer of this article). 

I'm assuming that the government acknowledges persecution only when it threatens life or comes close to that. Which this does not.

Persecution as a word has been used and flattened out to mean everything from not hearing Merry Christmas at Target the day after Thanksgiving to all out genocide of a specific ethnic group.

I don't think that homeschooling fits into a protected group as of yet- in terms of human rights. If they want to homeschool they should work on changing the laws in Germany.







GLWerth
by Gina on Mar. 25, 2013 at 5:13 PM

Sorry, but "I want to homeschool" isn't a reason for asylum.

Naturewoman4
by Platinum Member on Mar. 25, 2013 at 5:15 PM
No, this is not just to bitch about our DOJ. I admit I am very suspicious in regards to Obama & his Admin., including our DOJ. But, I would do the same no matter who is in office. That is not my point to this thread, it is to discuss the U.S. Law on granting an asylum & discussing Germany's reasons why homeschooling is not allowed there. Also, wondering why this family went the route of obtaining an asylum, instead of just coming here and staying here like so many other illegals do. I would think that before coming here & filing for an asylum, one would check the laws/rules here in this Country. For example, if I wanted to live in Canada. First, I would have to do all my research on what steps I need to take to go there to live. How to become a Canadian Citizen.
Quoting autodidact:

So if you're not homeschooler OP, is this just an opportunity to bitch about the DOJ?


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