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When Religious Rights Clash With Secular Law

Posted by on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:08 AM
  • 46 Replies
1 mom liked this

This is a s/o of the thread that talks about the rabbis passing on herpes to babies after circumcision.

We have freedom to practice religion in America, which is protected by First Amendment.  That's how important it is, it comes first.

We also, though, have other freedoms and rights and responsibilities according to the Constitution.

So my question is, when those come in conflict, where do we draw the line to say that religious freedom must be abridged in order to keep other rights and responsibilities?

Example:

Would we allow a religion that requires blood sacrifice to do so, even though it would be murder?

What about religions that refuse medical treatment, ending in the death of a child?

In the case in the other thread, when does the state step in and say "no" to a religious practice that in this case can potentially cause brain injury and death?

What say you?  Where is the line?

by on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:08 AM
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Replies (1-10):
owl0210
by Bronze Member on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:12 AM
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I've seen cases where parents were charged with neglect and murder over refusing medical treatment citing religious reasons. I'm all for prosecuting in those circumstances.
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romalove
by Roma on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:15 AM


Quoting owl0210:

I've seen cases where parents were charged with neglect and murder over refusing medical treatment citing religious reasons. I'm all for prosecuting in those circumstances.

I have seen that too.

And sometimes they win and sometimes they don't.

My question, though, is where we each of us think that line should be drawn.  

punky3175
by on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:22 AM
1 mom liked this
I think it's (technically) 'my rights end where yours start' or 'my rights end when they risk the health/life of someone else.' We learned t when I went through training for my current job but that was 5 years ago so I can't remember.

Having said that, it's really difficult to tell a parent how they should raise their child especially when it comes to religion vs science/medicine. As horrible as it sounds (as I read in the other thread) if a parent hears about the risks involved in certain practices and still choose to put their child at risk, that decisions is their's and their's alone. They will be the ones who will watch their child suffer if it ends up being the wrong decision.

Once that child is old enough to decide for themselves then the parents should have no say.
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romalove
by Roma on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:26 AM


Quoting punky3175:

I think it's (technically) 'my rights end where yours start' or 'my rights end when they risk the health/life of someone else.' We learned t when I went through training for my current job but that was 5 years ago so I can't remember.

Having said that, it's really difficult to tell a parent how they should raise their child especially when it comes to religion vs science/medicine. As horrible as it sounds (as I read in the other thread) if a parent hears about the risks involved in certain practices and still choose to put their child at risk, that decisions is their's and their's alone. They will be the ones who will watch their child suffer if it ends up being the wrong decision.

Once that child is old enough to decide for themselves then the parents should have no say.

In the case where the rabbis want to stop the bleeding in a circumcision with their mouth because it's their religious practice, what do you think should be the outcome?  Allowed because of religious freedom or they can be prosecuted for knowingly sharing herpes?  And what if they don't know?  Is the practice just outlawed despite its religious roots?

punky3175
by on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:39 AM
2 moms liked this
While I don't personally agree with the practice, I wouldn't dictate how someone else should practice their religion but I would like to see it be made a requirement that all potential health risks MUST be revealed. Because if herpes is being passed this way, what about HIV and Hepatitis?

Quoting romalove:


Quoting punky3175:

I think it's (technically) 'my rights end where yours start' or 'my rights end when they risk the health/life of someone else.' We learned t when I went through training for my current job but that was 5 years ago so I can't remember.



Having said that, it's really difficult to tell a parent how they should raise their child especially when it comes to religion vs science/medicine. As horrible as it sounds (as I read in the other thread) if a parent hears about the risks involved in certain practices and still choose to put their child at risk, that decisions is their's and their's alone. They will be the ones who will watch their child suffer if it ends up being the wrong decision.



Once that child is old enough to decide for themselves then the parents should have no say.

In the case where the rabbis want to stop the bleeding in a circumcision with their mouth because it's their religious practice, what do you think should be the outcome?  Allowed because of religious freedom or they can be prosecuted for knowingly sharing herpes?  And what if they don't know?  Is the practice just outlawed despite its religious roots?

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AdrianneHill
by Platinum Member on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:42 AM
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Wacky. With their mouths? I didn't read that thread. I probably should.
I'd probably say they have some religious rights that the state will leave alone but I personally don't dig the thought of an adult male putting his mouth on an infant's penis, even if they did that way since time began.
People also used to leave imperfect or unwanted infants to die of exposure in the forest and it wasn't considered murder because they didn't actively kill the babies themselves. To say it is common practice "because we've always done it that way." is lazy and unhelpful. We know better now so act like it.
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PinkButterfly66
by Gold Member on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:43 AM

Murder is always murder, no matter how you look at it.  The victim can hardly be a willing participant and give full consent.  We don't even allow someone to end their own life, suicide is illegal.

I think that denying medical treatment to a child due to religious beliefs is wrong, if the medical treatment would save the child's life.  But I believe it is the right of the child's parents to CHOSE medical treatment whether it is allopathic or alternative. If my child has cancer, I would chose alternative methods and avoid the traditional method of mutilate and burn and poisonous chemotherapy.



romalove
by Roma on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:46 AM


Quoting PinkButterfly66:

Murder is always murder, no matter how you look at it.  The victim can hardly be a willing participant and give full consent.  We don't even allow someone to end their own life, suicide is illegal.

I think that denying medical treatment to a child due to religious beliefs is wrong, if the medical treatment would save the child's life.  But I believe it is the right of the child's parents to CHOSE medical treatment whether it is allopathic or alternative. If my child has cancer, I would chose alternative methods and avoid the traditional method of mutilate and burn and poisonous chemotherapy.



Would you do that even if you were told the alternative methods had almost no chance but the "poisonous" ones had a great chance?

What if your child had leukemia, for example?  Childhood leukemia has had great success with treatment.

PinkButterfly66
by Gold Member on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:55 AM

Have you ever heard of Starchild Abraham Cherrix?  Alternative methods DO work.  Chemotherapy, radiation don't always work either.

Quoting romalove:


Quoting PinkButterfly66:

Murder is always murder, no matter how you look at it.  The victim can hardly be a willing participant and give full consent.  We don't even allow someone to end their own life, suicide is illegal.

I think that denying medical treatment to a child due to religious beliefs is wrong, if the medical treatment would save the child's life.  But I believe it is the right of the child's parents to CHOSE medical treatment whether it is allopathic or alternative. If my child has cancer, I would chose alternative methods and avoid the traditional method of mutilate and burn and poisonous chemotherapy.



Would you do that even if you were told the alternative methods had almost no chance but the "poisonous" ones had a great chance?

What if your child had leukemia, for example?  Childhood leukemia has had great success with treatment.


romalove
by Roma on Apr. 8, 2013 at 8:57 AM


Quoting PinkButterfly66:

Have you ever heard of Starchild Abraham Cherrix?  Alternative methods DO work.  Chemotherapy, radiation don't always work either.

Quoting romalove:


Quoting PinkButterfly66:

Murder is always murder, no matter how you look at it.  The victim can hardly be a willing participant and give full consent.  We don't even allow someone to end their own life, suicide is illegal.

I think that denying medical treatment to a child due to religious beliefs is wrong, if the medical treatment would save the child's life.  But I believe it is the right of the child's parents to CHOSE medical treatment whether it is allopathic or alternative. If my child has cancer, I would chose alternative methods and avoid the traditional method of mutilate and burn and poisonous chemotherapy.



Would you do that even if you were told the alternative methods had almost no chance but the "poisonous" ones had a great chance?

What if your child had leukemia, for example?  Childhood leukemia has had great success with treatment.


No, I never heard of that.

I picked childhood leukemia because I know with the current medical treatments they have tremendous success in curing kids. 

Can you say the same thing for alternative methods for that cancer?

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