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Abortion (ducking and hiding)

Posted by on Nov. 22, 2013 at 8:24 PM
  • 23 Replies
2 moms liked this

 First let me say that I am pro-choice, and always have been. I was 17 when Roe v Wade went before the court. I know how it was before. I was very aware of all the arguments pro and con. I lived through it. I also know very well that there are NOT enough adoptive parents in this country to adopt even one year's worth of the babies who would be born if abortion was outlawed.  If it is outlawed, women will get illegal abortions. Well-to-do women will go where it's legal. Poor women will get back alley abortions, and many will die. Over-crowded prisons will have to make room for women who were desperate enough to abort. A woman's right to choose, to make up her own mind, is vital both because it empowers women, and because it validates the rights of all people to make their own choices about their bodies and their beliefs.

But pro-choice advocates have lost it. How on Earth does magical thinking benefit the cause? By magical thinking, I mean this whole "it's only alive if I think it is."

Life is life. I can believe with all my heart that Justin Bieber doesn't exist, but it doesn't change anything. His obnoxious existence is a fact. If a fetus is not alive, what is it? It's not dead. It has brain waves, a heart beat. It moves. It has needs that it fulfills itself as evidenced by sucking it's thumb. You can't wish this away. You can't believe it away.

The viability argument is more supportable - but that's a problem, isn't it? Some pretty damn tiny babies are surviving, with medical support. All babies need some support when born, they are absolutley not viable otherwise. So there are a lot of problems with this argument also.

The only argument with any logic is that it is a person's right to make decisions about their own lives and especially about their own bodies. We all have the right to good medical care. And we all have the right to NOT live in a country where religious belief become law. Arguing against any legal issue based on belief in a pretty heinous book (the bibble) should never be allowed.

Saying it's not alive if you believe it's not cannot stand up. You can call names, condemn me, you can stomp your feet and have a tantrum, but you cannot present a logical, sound argument that fetuses are not alive anymore than a child can convince you that they really will die if they don't get a particularly desired toy. They aren't going to die, even if they believe they will. The fetus is alive, even if you say it's not.

The only argument with real, profound truth is that no one, NO ONE, should be allowed to tell anyone what they can and cannot do with their own bodies. No politician, no religious leader, no organization, can be allowed to force their opinions down anyone else's throat. And that has to extend to the fact of abortion.

"I believe this living thing is not alive, but the living thing in her uterus is alive because she wants it" is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have ever heard. That's why you attack the people who don't agree with you - you cannot present any kind of logical support for that belief.

Now have at it. You will either read this with an open mind and think about it, and respond with logic, or you will attack. If attacking makes you feel better, go right ahead. But we all have a right to our opinions and beliefs, and we all have a right to say what we believe. Isn't that what you are fighting for?

 

by on Nov. 22, 2013 at 8:24 PM
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Replies (1-10):
parentalrights1
by on Nov. 22, 2013 at 8:48 PM
2 moms liked this
I don't participate in personhood arguments usually because they are not relevant due to the fact that the woman owns the womb

But I will humor you.

At the time it has a heart and is moving and whatnot yes obviously it can be considered alive as a baby

But people are not arguing that an undeveloped fetus is dead or whatever. They're trying to stress that it is not viable as it's own person yet. Not that's it's literally not a separate being but pro lifers take everything literally and miss the point.

Anyway. Undeveloped fetuses are alive in the same sense that tumors or plants are alive. I'm sure one of the literal ass prolifers will come in to bitch about how the baby is being called a tumor or some shit. But you get the idea. Yeah we know its "alive"

But again I say it's not relevant. It wouldn't matter either way as long as the baby is unviable and taking residence in someone else's property
AlekD
by Gold Member on Nov. 22, 2013 at 8:49 PM
" The only argument with real, profound truth is that no one, NO ONE, should be allowed to tell anyone what they can and cannot do with their own bodies"

Is this only true in the case of abortion or do you think it should also apply to drug use?
ashellbell
by shellbark on Nov. 22, 2013 at 8:50 PM
Yes.


Quoting AlekD:

" The only argument with real, profound truth is that no one, NO ONE, should be allowed to tell anyone what they can and cannot do with their own bodies"



Is this only true in the case of abortion or do you think it should also apply to drug use?

AlekD
by Gold Member on Nov. 22, 2013 at 8:51 PM
Yes it only applies to abortion or yes all drugs should be legal?

Quoting ashellbell:

Yes.




Quoting AlekD:

" The only argument with real, profound truth is that no one, NO ONE, should be allowed to tell anyone what they can and cannot do with their own bodies"





Is this only true in the case of abortion or do you think it should also apply to drug use?

Stephanie329
by Platinum Member on Nov. 22, 2013 at 8:53 PM
Bumping for later
ashellbell
by shellbark on Nov. 22, 2013 at 8:54 PM
I think any adult should have the right to do or put whatever they want in to their own body. It absolutely applies to both. As long as they aren't physically harming another viable life, we should be able to do what we went in regards to our bodies.


Quoting AlekD:

Yes it only applies to abortion or yes all drugs should be legal?



Quoting ashellbell:

Yes.






Quoting AlekD:

" The only argument with real, profound truth is that no one, NO ONE, should be allowed to tell anyone what they can and cannot do with their own bodies"







Is this only true in the case of abortion or do you think it should also apply to drug use?


momtoscott
by Platinum Member on Nov. 22, 2013 at 9:00 PM
2 moms liked this

I believe a fetus is alive.   However, I don't believe a fetus has a soul (I don't believe I have a soul, either) or any kind of cosmic right to existence.   That  conviction separates me from a lot of religious people, and I understand that.  

A fetus's personhood rights become promblematic to me at the point where the fetus has a nervous system that can feel pain and/or it could survive outside of the mother.   The abortions permitted by Roe v. Wade generally are permitted before the fetus's nervous system or viabiity is developed, so I support Roe v. Wade and choice.  

AdrianneHill
by Platinum Member on Nov. 22, 2013 at 9:08 PM
I always considered it alive for a given value of life. Of course to me, its claim on life is only as far as the owner of the womb is willing to take it.
So yes it's alive. It just doesn't matter until viability. Otherwise, terrible things happen to women children, and even men, and the "precious little babies" die anyway.
I know you, the op, remember what it was like, but for the people who don't remember, weren't alive, or don't believe, they just need to look at Latin America for a vision of that future. If that is too foreign and you (general) need to see white people suffering to believe it, look to Romania and the mass orphanages with emotionally unattached children and children who can't hope to function as adults. It can be so much worse.
vic270
by Bronze Member on Nov. 22, 2013 at 9:11 PM

i guess the one contradiction in your argument that i have[ not to say i do not beleive in abortion],is that if you saw a woman that you knew was pregnant and having a drink of vodka and smokeing a cigarette you would have a problem with that,most people would anyway, but if they want to kill the baby  that is ok. this is just my opinion.also when people have a right to do what they want with their own bodies why should i have to pay for the illinesses it brings on. i can't see the logic in this. 

AdrianneHill
by Platinum Member on Nov. 22, 2013 at 9:21 PM
Most of the time, if you can tell if a woman is pregnant, is after the first trimester which is when most abortions take place. I don't get upset seeing pregnant women smoke. I also know that some doctors allow their patients a frosty beverage on occasion, modern hysteria over prenatal food and drink not withstanding.
So I'd like to think that if she was my friend, I'd ask her about it and go from there, and if I didn't know her, I'd realize it was not my damn business.


Quoting vic270:

i guess the one contradiction in your argument that i have[ not to say i do not beleive in abortion],is that if you saw a woman that you knew was pregnant and having a drink of vodka and smokeing a cigarette you would have a problem with that,most people would anyway, but if they want to kill the baby  that is ok. this is just my opinion.also when people have a right to do what they want with their own bodies why should i have to pay for the illinesses it brings on. i can't see the logic in this. 

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