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baker bashing and tolerance

Posted by on Jun. 7, 2014 at 6:15 AM
  • 120 Replies
3 moms liked this

 I read as much as I could on the baker bashing thread and I found a few things almost comical.

  1. Jesus was not a baker.  Why is there a suggestion that he would bake anyone a cake?
  2. Jesus never had an open discussion regarding sexual orientation.  You can pick out of the biblical texts and twist anything with the intention to justify your opinion.  That does not mean you are correct.
  3. Just because a state has laws allowing same sex marriage does not mean that the law mandates that business owners have to break thier religious convictions in order to serve the public.  For example, would the same argument be made if the baker in question refused to bake a cake for a KKK rally celebration?  How about if he was asked to bake a 'Red' cake for a communist party?  Klansmen and Communists are allowed to exist, and have the right to assemble.  Are we supposed to support them, also?
  4. There are several instances where private business owners are allowed to restrict thier scope of business to hold true to their religious beliefs.  A Jewish deli is not required to sell ham sandwiches. 
  5. When we had a draft in place in our country, Amish men were exempt on religous grounds. Some families are against vaccinations on religous grounds and are exempt.  Muslim women are allowed to wear thier coverings over otherwise mandated uniforms in certain places of employment. How is this situation different? (I am not arguing, just really want an answer to this one)
  6. This is just a suggestion;  how about allowing businesses to display a window decal that will tell the public they are accepting of certain things.  Like the certified kosher, or vegan signs I see on some businesses this will tell the public that this business is willing to bake your gay wedding cake, supply cateringfor your event, etc....

Everyone should be respected for their humanity.  Everyone is allowed to hold true to their own beliefs.  I just think it's time that the respect and tolerance goes in all directions.

by on Jun. 7, 2014 at 6:15 AM
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Aslen
by Silver Member on Jun. 7, 2014 at 6:21 AM
12 moms liked this
In those states though, the discrimination laws include sexual orientation. If you're going to run a public accommodation, you have to accommodate the public. All of it.

No one's first amendment rights are being stepped on. Those people can still practice their religion. What they can't do is use their religion to discriminate against others
jobseeker
by Bronze Member on Jun. 7, 2014 at 6:28 AM
4 moms liked this

 I have heard this argument before, it does not hold water.

The baker's rights to free practice of religion are being violated.  First amendment involves free speech.  His speech is not being violated, he is allowed to speek his opinion, but his freedom to practice his religion IS being violated. 

In the example I used of the Jewish deli one could argue that the customer's right to a ham sandwich is being violated by the Kosher deli.  This would be incorrect because the consumer is able to get that sandwich at another deli.  In this case, the customer can get a cake from another baker, so how is the customer harmed?

Quoting Aslen: In those states though, the discrimination laws include sexual orientation. If you're going to run a public accommodation, you have to accommodate the public. All of it. No one's first amendment rights are being stepped on. Those people can still practice their religion. What they can't do is use their religion to discriminate against others

 

Aslen
by Silver Member on Jun. 7, 2014 at 7:03 AM
13 moms liked this

No, they're not. He can still believe what he wants, and practice how he wants. The governemtn isn't telling him how to worship or believe; they're saying he can't discriminate and use his religion to do so. Don't want to abide by state discrimination laws? Don't run a public accommodation, or move to state where you can can discriminate against homosexuals

He can't discriminate against anyone. and use his religion to do it.


Not carrying a product is not the same as carrying a product and denying someone the right to buy it.


People used the same tired arguments as a reason to segregate too... maybe we hsould go back to that one.


Quoting jobseeker:

 I have heard this argument before, it does not hold water.

The baker's rights to free practice of religion are being violated.  First amendment involves free speech.  His speech is not being violated, he is allowed to speek his opinion, but his freedom to practice his religion IS being violated. 

In the example I used of the Jewish deli one could argue that the customer's right to a ham sandwich is being violated by the Kosher deli.  This would be incorrect because the consumer is able to get that sandwich at another deli.  In this case, the customer can get a cake from another baker, so how is the customer harmed?

Quoting Aslen: In those states though, the discrimination laws include sexual orientation. If you're going to run a public accommodation, you have to accommodate the public. All of it. No one's first amendment rights are being stepped on. Those people can still practice their religion. What they can't do is use their religion to discriminate against others

 


jobseeker
by Bronze Member on Jun. 7, 2014 at 7:11 AM

 disagree

Quoting Aslen:

No, they're not. He can still believe what he wants, and practice how he wants. The governemtn isn't telling him how to worship or believe; they're saying he can't discriminate and use his religion to do so. Don't want to abide by state discrimination laws? Don't run a public accommodation, or move to state where you can can discriminate against homosexuals

He can't discriminate against anyone. and use his religion to do it.

 

Not carrying a product is not the same as carrying a product and denying someone the right to buy it.

 

People used the same tired arguments as a reason to segregate too... maybe we hsould go back to that one.

 

Quoting jobseeker:

 I have heard this argument before, it does not hold water.

The baker's rights to free practice of religion are being violated.  First amendment involves free speech.  His speech is not being violated, he is allowed to speek his opinion, but his freedom to practice his religion IS being violated. 

In the example I used of the Jewish deli one could argue that the customer's right to a ham sandwich is being violated by the Kosher deli.  This would be incorrect because the consumer is able to get that sandwich at another deli.  In this case, the customer can get a cake from another baker, so how is the customer harmed?

Quoting Aslen: In those states though, the discrimination laws include sexual orientation. If you're going to run a public accommodation, you have to accommodate the public. All of it. No one's first amendment rights are being stepped on. Those people can still practice their religion. What they can't do is use their religion to discriminate against others

 

 

 

D-Town
by Silver Member on Jun. 7, 2014 at 8:03 AM
12 moms liked this

 1.) The Bible has more to say about prostitution than about homosexuality. In several places, when discussing the sexual immorality of the culture being discusses Prostitution is the immorality being talked about. That being said, Jesus did business with several prostsitutes. Jesus healed Mary Magdalene in exchange for money. Her and several other prostitutes financially supported Jesus and his disciples. Not just prostitutes either. Jesus hung out with and healed (for money in return) all manner of sinners. It is pretty safe to say that had Jesus been a baker, he most certainly would have baked a cake for a homosexual.

 

2.) No he did not. That has been the point of many people who speak out against these businesses. He did not say anything about homosexuality. The handful of NT verses that are touted as Jesus' words were actually spoken by Paul. Paul also said people should abstain from sex completely and not even marry.

 

3.) Just baking a cake for a communist or clansman is not a show of support for their cause. As a baker, you have the right to refuse to say write an offensive note on the cake. When refusing service, there should be a legitimate reason for refusing. Because they're black/gay/Jewish/Asian/female etc is not a legitimate reason.

 

4.) restaurants, no matter who runs them, have the right to determine their own menu. If you went to McDonalds and demanded they serve you sushi, they're going to laugh at you. A jewish caterer that doesn't put pork on his menu is not going to be required to change his menu. However, if he serves pork, he has to provide to all of his customers. Not just the ones he likes. The baker wasn't asked to make something he normally doesn't make. He was just asked to make one for a person he didn't like.

 

5.) Bad analogy. Conscientious objectors are still drafted. In most cases they are given jobs that does not put them in battle. Ironic that you mention CO's. Being yesterday was the anniversary of D-Day some friends of mine and myself were discussing various notable soldiers during WWII. One of which was Desmond Doss. Amazing story of a conscientious objector who was drafted and then went on to receive the Medal of Honor. A reasonable accomodation should be and will be made. The key word there is REASONABLE. A better example is the Muslim woman who challenged the DMV to allow her to take a drivers license photo with a full face veil. She was denied. However, accommodations will not be made if those requests are considered unreasonable. An example would be the White Supremacists patient who demanded that he not be treated by a black nurse. A baker who bakes wedding cakes is obviously not violating his religious beliefs by baking a wedding cake.

 

6. If a business wants to advertise that they discriminate against any group, I'm all for. If they put a sign in the window stating "We are bigots" it would certainly make it easier to know who to not give money to.

mikiemom
by Ruby Member on Jun. 7, 2014 at 8:50 AM
7 moms liked this

If your religious convictions are violated by you doing your job - as in baking cakes in this instance, you general you should find a new job.

coolmommy2x
by Gold Member on Jun. 7, 2014 at 8:55 AM
Well said.

Quoting D-Town:

 1.) The Bible has more to say about prostitution than about homosexuality. In several places, when discussing the sexual immorality of the culture being discusses Prostitution is the immorality being talked about. That being said, Jesus did business with several prostsitutes. Jesus healed Mary Magdalene in exchange for money. Her and several other prostitutes financially supported Jesus and his disciples. Not just prostitutes either. Jesus hung out with and healed (for money in return) all manner of sinners. It is pretty safe to say that had Jesus been a baker, he most certainly would have baked a cake for a homosexual.


 


2.) No he did not. That has been the point of many people who speak out against these businesses. He did not say anything about homosexuality. The handful of NT verses that are touted as Jesus' words were actually spoken by Paul. Paul also said people should abstain from sex completely and not even marry.


 


3.) Just baking a cake for a communist or clansman is not a show of support for their cause. As a baker, you have the right to refuse to say write an offensive note on the cake. When refusing service, there should be a legitimate reason for refusing. Because they're black/gay/Jewish/Asian/female etc is not a legitimate reason.


 


4.) restaurants, no matter who runs them, have the right to determine their own menu. If you went to McDonalds and demanded they serve you sushi, they're going to laugh at you. A jewish caterer that doesn't put pork on his menu is not going to be required to change his menu. However, if he serves pork, he has to provide to all of his customers. Not just the ones he likes. The baker wasn't asked to make something he normally doesn't make. He was just asked to make one for a person he didn't like.


 


5.) Bad analogy. Conscientious objectors are still drafted. In most cases they are given jobs that does not put them in battle. Ironic that you mention CO's. Being yesterday was the anniversary of D-Day some friends of mine and myself were discussing various notable soldiers during WWII. One of which was Desmond Doss. Amazing story of a conscientious objector who was drafted and then went on to receive the Medal of Honor. A reasonable accomodation should be and will be made. The key word there is REASONABLE. A better example is the Muslim woman who challenged the DMV to allow her to take a drivers license photo with a full face veil. She was denied. However, accommodations will not be made if those requests are considered unreasonable. An example would be the White Supremacists patient who demanded that he not be treated by a black nurse. A baker who bakes wedding cakes is obviously not violating his religious beliefs by baking a wedding cake.


 


6. If a business wants to advertise that they discriminate against any group, I'm all for. If they put a sign in the window stating "We are bigots" it would certainly make it easier to know who to not give money to.

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snookyfritz
by Platinum Member on Jun. 7, 2014 at 8:55 AM
1 mom liked this

As a former baker.  I wouldn't have a problem baking a cake for a gay wedding.  I don't think that's such a big deal.  I am however, more concerned with active participation in a ceremony.  Something like photography or on site catering would be an issue with me.  That would seem more an active participation and require a degree of accompice to it. 

codfish
by Silver Member on Jun. 7, 2014 at 8:56 AM
Tolerance on the left is only if you agree with them.
coolmommy2x
by Gold Member on Jun. 7, 2014 at 9:13 AM
So you would bake it but not deliver it? Take their money but not put your love and passion into the project?

Quoting snookyfritz:

As a former baker.  I wouldn't have a problem baking a cake for a gay wedding.  I don't think that's such a big deal.  I am however, more concerned with active participation in a ceremony.  Something like photography or on site catering would be an issue with me.  That would seem more an active participation and require a degree of accompice to it. 

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