Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)

Current Events & Hot Topics Current Events & Hot Topics

Christian and Jewish women. I would love to ask you somethig

I've been reason a lot lately. I have been really getting into theological books and research as a summer project.
I came across something interesting today while reading. Lucifer did not exist until after Christianity was formed. There is a verse that was taken out of context and mistranslated.

answer: a term that described a king that fell from grace - NOT the "fall" that Christians believe.

Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!

The fallen star the verse is talking about is the king of Babylon.
Nowhere in genesis is the snake named. And Job was faced with an adversary who was named Satan but was also called a son of God. http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et2701.htm


From why I have read and studied it seems to me that the founders of Christianity made Satan up.

Can I hear from some Christians and any Jewish moms about this topic?
by on Jun. 15, 2014 at 1:50 PM
Replies (51-55):
vamaria
by Member on Jun. 17, 2014 at 4:48 PM

The New Testament tells us a great deal about the Old Testament. With the existence of evil, even if you do not believe in a literal devil, we need a Saviour. Here are some points to consider:

The Apostle Paul was most certainly an astute Jewish scholar and would have been familiar with the Jewish interpretations yet he warned against the serpent (as a representative of Satan and even as the presence of Satan, the Devil). Most certainly John and the other apostles were  given revelation about the Devil.

2 Corinthians 11:3 " But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 

Revelation 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." 

Revelation 12:14  "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."
 
Revelation 12:15  "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood." 

Revelation 20:2  "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"
12hellokitty
by Ruby Member on Jun. 17, 2014 at 6:44 PM

The angles where given a command by God who also gave them the free choice to disobey his command.  So yes you are right God could have created the angles and man without free will and given them no choice but to obey and worship God.  This would mean people would be void of emotions and relationship.  

Just keep in mind you are only able to not buy into the Christian deity because of God giving man freewill.  

Quoting LoveMyBoyK: So you agree He was aware of what Lucifer would do and still choose to create him, with full knowledge of what would happen as a direct result of making that choice. Again, if He did not wish it to happen, He would have made a different choice. And the above is a large part of why I do not buy into the Christian deity story.
Quoting 12hellokitty:

God chose to create angles giving them freewill to respect their dignity.  Allowing something is not the same as willing something.  God allows evil because he is capable of bringing good from it.  


Quoting LoveMyBoyK: It is really quite simple -- He knew before He CHOSE to create. That means He was not opposed to it happening and chose to allow it to happen. If He had not wanted it to happen, He would have made a different choice.
Quoting 12hellokitty:

Still not following where you are coming up with knowing equals willing?  

Quoting LoveMyBoyK: If the story is to be believed (which I do not but you clearly do), God created Lucifer, knowing (due to His omnipotence) that Lucifer would rebel and descend to hell to tempt His creations away. He knew and still created Lucifer anyway. Therefore, it was His will that it happen that way.
Quoting 12hellokitty:

Sorry I really have no idea what exactly you are asking with these questions.  Perhaps if you could tie them together into one more specific question, I will try my best to answer.  

Quoting AdrianneHill: What was evil? More appropriately, when was evil? Was biting the apple evil? Was offering the apple evil? Who took the angel guarding the trees away? Was creating an animal to tempt those you know will fail evil?
Quoting 12hellokitty:

Not sure where you are coming up with this, but only God can create something out of nothing.  People create all kinds of things.  If you are trying to get that God created evil, the answer is no.  Evil is not a thing but an act.  

Quoting AdrianneHill: Is there only one creator? Does that creator know everything? Is that creator all powerful? If the creator knows all and is the only one who can create, then everything in existence is here through the express permission and behest of the creator. If he didn't want it, there's be no reason for him to bring it into existence. If he is the only creator, then everything that exists was created by him. Only following the logic
Quoting 12hellokitty:

Where are you coming up with if it wasn't desired it would be removed?  

Quoting AdrianneHill: If a being is truly all powerful and the only creator, then anything in existence is there at the behest of the creator. If it wasn't desired, it would be removed. So anything that Satan does is by definition in line with God's will.







Bird_on_a_wire
by Bronze Member on Jun. 17, 2014 at 7:08 PM

I am anxiously awaiting an answer :)

Quoting PerseyG: The only real references to the fallen angel Lucifer are in the Talmud...the oral Jewish history...not the Torah which is the written history. I am not a Talmudic scholar...I am meeting with my rabbi tonight and will ask her.


LoveMyBoyK
by Ruby Member on Jun. 17, 2014 at 7:25 PM
It has nothing to do with the free will of man. It has to do with not accepting a supposedly "loving" paternal deity deliberately and knowingly creating a being who would actively work to destroy his later creations.

Quoting 12hellokitty:

The angles where given a command by God who also gave them the free choice to disobey his command.  So yes you are right God could have created the angles and man without free will and given them no choice but to obey and worship God.  This would mean people would be void of emotions and relationship.  

Just keep in mind you are only able to not buy into the Christian deity because of God giving man freewill.  

Quoting LoveMyBoyK: So you agree He was aware of what Lucifer would do and still choose to create him, with full knowledge of what would happen as a direct result of making that choice. Again, if He did not wish it to happen, He would have made a different choice. And the above is a large part of why I do not buy into the Christian deity story.
Quoting 12hellokitty:

God chose to create angles giving them freewill to respect their dignity.  Allowing something is not the same as willing something.  God allows evil because he is capable of bringing good from it.  

Quoting LoveMyBoyK: It is really quite simple -- He knew before He CHOSE to create. That means He was not opposed to it happening and chose to allow it to happen. If He had not wanted it to happen, He would have made a different choice.
Quoting 12hellokitty:

Still not following where you are coming up with knowing equals willing?  

Quoting LoveMyBoyK: If the story is to be believed (which I do not but you clearly do), God created Lucifer, knowing (due to His omnipotence) that Lucifer would rebel and descend to hell to tempt His creations away. He knew and still created Lucifer anyway. Therefore, it was His will that it happen that way.
Quoting 12hellokitty:

Sorry I really have no idea what exactly you are asking with these questions.  Perhaps if you could tie them together into one more specific question, I will try my best to answer.  

Quoting AdrianneHill: What was evil? More appropriately, when was evil? Was biting the apple evil? Was offering the apple evil? Who took the angel guarding the trees away? Was creating an animal to tempt those you know will fail evil?
Quoting 12hellokitty:

Not sure where you are coming up with this, but only God can create something out of nothing.  People create all kinds of things.  If you are trying to get that God created evil, the answer is no.  Evil is not a thing but an act.  

Quoting AdrianneHill: Is there only one creator? Does that creator know everything? Is that creator all powerful? If the creator knows all and is the only one who can create, then everything in existence is here through the express permission and behest of the creator. If he didn't want it, there's be no reason for him to bring it into existence. If he is the only creator, then everything that exists was created by him. Only following the logic

Quoting 12hellokitty:

Where are you coming up with if it wasn't desired it would be removed?  

Quoting AdrianneHill: If a being is truly all powerful and the only creator, then anything in existence is there at the behest of the creator. If it wasn't desired, it would be removed. So anything that Satan does is by definition in line with God's will.

Posted on CafeMom Mobile
redheadstar
by Bronze Member on Jun. 18, 2014 at 1:33 PM

To me: Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, The Thief, The Serpent , and adversary are the same.  ( he wrecks havoc) Christians did not make him up, since it states of this evil doer in the OT.  ..Christianity was not formed  back then.


And to that poster who said "the Devil works with God.  Not true"  The Devil hates God.    John 10:10- The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy.

Add your quick reply below:
You must be a member to reply to this post.
Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)

close Join now to connect to
other members!
Connect with Facebook or Sign Up Using Email

Already Joined? LOG IN