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But what about transgendered men?

Posted by on May. 5, 2015 at 1:12 PM
  • 15 Replies

I applaud Smith and their decision to accept transgendered women  Regardless of genitalia or birth certificate, if an individual identifies as female, I believe they should be treated as female.

Where my issue comes in is what happens when a student, accepted as a female, transitions to male and wishes to be identified as male?  It is an all women's college, presumably for a reason.  If the trans community wishes to be accepted as the gender they present to the world, I believe a transgendered male should have to leave an all women's college.

But was about agendered individuals who do not identify or present as male or female?

Just noodling.


Transgender Students at Women’s Colleges


The questions have confounded admission officials at women’s colleges in recent years.

Should transgender women be allowed to apply? If so, how far along into the gender transition process must an applicant be to be recognized as a woman?

After a year of soul searching, Smith College this weekend became the latest of the prestigious women’s colleges to come around to a sensible conclusion. Starting this fall, transgender women may apply. All they have to do is note on the application form that they are women. Students who enroll as women and later come out as transgender men will be welcome to stay at Smith.

“We had lots of really wonderful and interesting discussions,” Kathleen McCartney, the president of Smith College, said in an interview. “We came to the collective decision that trans women are women and belong at Smith.” Smith, a liberal arts college in Massachusetts, became the seventh well-known women’s college in recent months to have revised its admission policies in order to welcome transgender women. Others, including Barnard College in Manhattan, are considering similar changes.

Photo

Calliope Wong Credit Jessica Hill/Associated Press

Smith’s evolution on the issue was closely watched because of its highly publicized refusal in 2013 to consider the application of Calliope Wong, a transgender woman. Ms. Wong wrote about her ordeal on a Tumblr page titled Transwomen @ Smith. Because Ms. Wong had not had gender reassignment surgery, she was unable to change the gender on her birth certificate in Connecticut, which is contemplating allowing transgender people to update the records regardless of whether they have had surgery.

On March 5, 2013, Ms. Wong received a jarring letter from Smith, along with her application fee. “Smith is a women’s college, which means that undergraduate applicants to Smith must be female at the time of admission.” Ms. Wong’s problem was a financial aid document in her application that identified her as male.

“When I put my story out into the world, I originally just wanted one thing: for institutions and individuals in power to recognize that trans oppression is not silent,” Ms. Wong wrote over the weekend on the Tumblr page.

Smith is one of many institutions around the country that have faced a steep learning curve on the complex and quickly evolving issue of gender identity. College officials began a yearlong review and solicited comments from alumni, parents, faculty and students. Of the more than 1,800 emails the college received, “the overwhelming” response was supportive of a policy that would welcome transgender women, Ms. McCartney said.

Ms. Wong, an English major at the University of Connecticut, wrote in her latest blog post that she’s not interested in transferring to Smith. However, she said she would welcome a degree as an honorary member of the class of 2017. That seems fitting. Smith didn’t give Ms. Wong an education. But the student’s courage and tenacity taught her dream school a great deal.

by on May. 5, 2015 at 1:12 PM
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Replies (1-10):
EireLass
by Ruby Member on May. 5, 2015 at 2:34 PM

How does an individual NOT identify as male or female? Isn't that what the whole thing is about?

pdxmum
by Gold Member on May. 5, 2015 at 3:22 PM

Not at all.  There is a growing populatio of people that do not wish to identify either way.  My daughter has a friend, he was always a he and now he is a they.  The Swedish government just added a pronoun to describe someone that is not a he or a she.

"Agendered" is just one word to describe.

Quoting EireLass:

How does an individual NOT identify as male or female? Isn't that what the whole thing is about?


EireLass
by Ruby Member on May. 5, 2015 at 6:47 PM

I've never heard of that. I would say the safest thing to do then...in the instance of schools, etc....would be to default to body parts.

Quoting pdxmum:

Not at all.  There is a growing populatio of people that do not wish to identify either way.  My daughter has a friend, he was always a he and now he is a they.  The Swedish government just added a pronoun to describe someone that is not a he or a she.

"Agendered" is just one word to describe.

Quoting EireLass:

How does an individual NOT identify as male or female? Isn't that what the whole thing is about?



purpleducky
by Silver Member on May. 6, 2015 at 4:46 PM
2 moms liked this

Yes transmen should not be allowed to attend an all women's school. However, if a person is at an all women's school and is "toying" with the idea of being male, then I believe she should be allowed to stay. For some, they need to try it and then they realize that isn't them. So I say until the person makes the concious decision to be male, she should be able to stay.

As for gender neutral people, I say they should be allowed no matter what their birth sex is as long as they are ok with being addressed as female and treated like a female while at the school. 

Clairwil
by Ruby Member on May. 6, 2015 at 5:59 PM

In Britain you get a government issued Gender Recognition Certificate, and then your birth certificate and passport are altered.

So you should just go with the gender specified in the legal records.

pdxmum
by Gold Member on May. 6, 2015 at 6:28 PM

I'm not familiar with that.  What does one have to do to get recognized?


Quoting Clairwil:

In Britain you get a government issued Gender Recognition Certificate, and then your birth certificate and passport are altered.

So you should just go with the gender specified in the legal records.


pdxmum
by Gold Member on May. 6, 2015 at 7:24 PM

I would hope the trans community recognizes that when they in transition and they themselves are not black and white on their gender, the rest of us will be also. 

One of SSs friends transitioned.  Suddenly he was talking about Mary, a friend we didn't know.  It was only when we asked who Mary was that he said it was Mark.  For someone that completely supports a person choosing their gender, I didn't have the language readily available to normalize it.

Do I say congratulations the next time I see mary?  Do I even acknowledge it at all?


Quoting purpleducky:

Yes transmen should not be allowed to attend an all women's school. However, if a person is at an all women's school and is "toying" with the idea of being male, then I believe she should be allowed to stay. For some, they need to try it and then they realize that isn't them. So I say until the person makes the concious decision to be male, she should be able to stay.

As for gender neutral people, I say they should be allowed no matter what their birth sex is as long as they are ok with being addressed as female and treated like a female while at the school. 


purpleducky
by Silver Member on May. 6, 2015 at 7:37 PM
1 mom liked this

Every trans person I know accepts those in transition because the process can take years. In addition, those I know realize that it generally takes awhile before self acceptance of the new gender. 

As for your SSs friend, acknowledge it but don't make a big deal of it. Say something like you are glad that she is comfortable being herself but don't say congratulations. 

Quoting pdxmum:

I would hope the trans community recognizes that when they in transition and they themselves are not black and white on their gender, the rest of us will be also. 

One of SSs friends transitioned.  Suddenly he was talking about Mary, a friend we didn't know.  It was only when we asked who Mary was that he said it was Mark.  For someone that completely supports a person choosing their gender, I didn't have the language readily available to normalize it.

Do I say congratulations the next time I see mary?  Do I even acknowledge it at all?


Quoting purpleducky:

Yes transmen should not be allowed to attend an all women's school. However, if a person is at an all women's school and is "toying" with the idea of being male, then I believe she should be allowed to stay. For some, they need to try it and then they realize that isn't them. So I say until the person makes the concious decision to be male, she should be able to stay.

As for gender neutral people, I say they should be allowed no matter what their birth sex is as long as they are ok with being addressed as female and treated like a female while at the school. 



Clairwil
by Ruby Member on May. 6, 2015 at 8:11 PM


Quoting pdxmum:
Quoting Clairwil:

In Britain you get a government issued Gender Recognition Certificate, and then your birth certificate and passport are altered.

So you should just go with the gender specified in the legal records.


I'm not familiar with that.  What does one have to do to get recognized?

You must:

  • be 18 or over
  • be diagnosed with gender dysphoria (unhappiness with your birth gender)
  • have lived as your new gender for 2 years
  • intend to live in your changed gender for the rest of your life
  • apply to the Gender Recognition Panel

Gender Recognition Panel guidance

Wanting to have a change of gender legally recognised

If you are over 18 years old and have lived in your chosen gender for more than 2 years, or you have changed gender in certain countries outside the UK and you want to have your new gender recognised in the UK, you can apply to the Gender Recognition Panel for a gender recognition certificate.

The Gender Recognition Panel, part of HM Courts & Tribunals Service, assesses applications from transsexual people to provide legal recognition of gender change.

To make an application you must be able to show:

  • You  have, or have had, gender dysphoria 
  • You  have lived fully for the last two years in your acquired gender
  • You intend to live permanently in your acquired gender 

If applying from outside the UK you must show that you have been recognised in your acquired gender.

How to make an application

There are 3 ways in which you can apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate. The standard application route, the alternative application route and if you are applying from outside the UK the overseas application route.
 
Please make sure you read the General Guide for users before deciding which application route is most suitable for you, alternatively you can contact the administration team for the Gender Recognition Panel who will be able to give you further advice.

Please also read the guide Gender Recognition Certificate: pensions and benefits note. How getting a full Gender Recognition Certificate may affect National Insurance, pensions and other social security benefits.

The fee for making an application is £140. You may be able to apply for the fee to be reduced –EX160A Court and tribunal fees – do I have to pay them

Send the form, supporting evidence and fee to:

Gender Recognition Panel
PO Box 9300
Leicester
LE1 8DJ


The Panel has to be satisfied that a registered medical practitioner practising in the field of gender dysphoria has provided a report confirming a diagnosis and giving details of how that was made. The Gender Recognition Act (2004) does not define this term. It is separately defined in the Interpretation Act (1978) by reference to section 55 of the Medical Act (1983). This requires the practitioner to be registered with the General Medical Council (GMC). This can include doctors trained or practising abroad but registered in the United Kingdom. This can be a real problem for people born in the UK but based overseas. A complete explanation of the principles and rules is given by the President can be found here. 


When you submit the completed form you need to accompany it with:

• A Statutory Declaration: Suitable templates may be found on this website. Choose the appropriate one and modify to suite your circumstances. This can be sworn before any solicitor who will typically charge £15. A magistrate can also swear this for you but the cost is likely to be a little lower at £8.

• Medical reports: There is no need for your doctors to use the form form provided, so long as it is clear that the information provided applies to you; all the UK specialists are well aware of the process so do not insult them by presenting them with the form (despite the instruction on the first page to do so). It is important to ensure that the report from the specialist is clear and unequivocal about your intention to live thenceforth and permanently in your adopted gender. The doctors are at liberty to charge up to £200 for each report, even if you are being treated under the NHS. Expect to pay at least £30. Note therequirements for this specialist to be a member of the GRC. 

• Evidence of gender role: Providing high quality evidence that you have lived permanently in your preferred gender for at least two years is key. This is discussed in more detail here.



In addition to the medical evidence you have to demonstrate that you have lived permanently in your adopted gender for at least two years. This is not as straightforward a requirement as it might at first appear. Although, almost certainly, the specialists treating you will have insisted on a two year “Real Life Experience” before agreeing to surgical intervention, this doesn't necessarily lead to the accumulation of the document trail needed to satisfy the exacting requirements of the Gender Recognition Panel. They will make a critical assessment based upon the precise evidence presented in different categories and it falls to you to make sure that this is full and sufficient.



For more detail, see:

AdrianneHill
by Ruby Member on May. 6, 2015 at 9:10 PM
People leave women transitioning to men out of the conversation a lot so I'll admit to being curious as to their thoughts and feelings. When speaking of the restroom controversy, everyone defaults to the male to female part of the discussion but I bet the same women who insist trans women use the men's room would be a little shaken at seeing someone with a beard and muscles coming out of the stall.



Ok, so now let's talk about that a little....
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