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The Silly and Harmful Fantasy of "Two States for Two Peoples

Posted by on Jun. 21, 2009 at 11:08 PM
  • 11 Replies

 

The Silly and Harmful Fantasy of "Two States for Two Peoples"

Steven Plaut takes apart the "two state solution" at Zionist Conspiracy (thanks to Israpundit). I am not sure Netanyahu is going along with this "solution" except under duress, but in any case, Plaut's analysis of the flaws of the "solution" itself is excellent.

Those who support the "Two States for Two Peoples" doctrine, and I suppose that now one must even include Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu in that category, no matter how reluctantly he joined it, have a very simple position. Indeed, the entire "Two States for Two Peoples" doctrine can be summed up in one simple idea, in fact in one simple sentence. It is this: maybe after the Palestinians get their own state, then they will agree to live in peace with Israel. No matter how complex and "scholarly" is any article or position paper that supports "Two States for Two Peoples" doctrine, once one clears away the verbiage it all boils down to that one simple idea.

To put it even more strongly, no one who is currently promoting "Two States for Two Peoples" would still be promoting it if they could be persuaded beyond all doubt that the Palestinians would NOT live in peace after getting their own state under "Two States for Two Peoples," or if they discovered with certainty that the second of those states ("Palestine") would be used for nothing other than terrorist aggression. Well, almost no one would. In the increasingly anti-Semitic Left around the world and even at the margins of the Israeli Far Left there are already people arguing that Israel should agree to "Two States for Two Peoples" even if it is totally clear and obvious that "Palestine" will be used for nothing besides terrorist aggression against Israel. They support that idea because they think that creating a Palestinian state is the right thing to do no matter how destructive it will be and no matter how disastrous for Israel will be the consequences of its creation. The more honest far Leftists defend this position by admitting that they want Israel annihilated and all of its Jews thrown into the sea.

Today to promote "Two States for Two Peoples" requires a bit of cognitive dissonance. After all, Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip, turning it over to the "Palestinian Authority," and the whole world saw the consequences. They included 8000 rocket missiles aimed at Jewish civilians inside Israel. So those who insist that the Palestinian will desire to live in peace once they have their own state are about as consistent and credible as are people who argue that North Korea and Iran will seek genuine peace once they get nuclear weapons, or those that once insisted that Hitler would be satisfied once he gets the Sudetenland.

But more generally, the whole "Two States for Two Peoples" campaign is nothing more than a special case of the "Then Maybe they Will" doctrine.

For the past 30 years the Israeli political establishment has been prisoner to the "Then Maybe They Will" doctrine. Every major policy decision made by the government has reflected the power of wishful thinking and faith in the make-pretend. Here is a brief recapitulation of the doctrine:

If Israel gives Sinai back to the Egyptians, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL stop the Nazi-like anti-Semitic propaganda in their state-run media.

If Israel agrees to limited autonomy for Palestinians, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL stop seeking Israel's destruction and the world will not try to set up an independent Palestinian Arab terror state.

If Israel provides the Palestinian Authority with arms and funds, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not be used for terrorist atrocities against Israel.

If Israel grants its Arab citizens affirmative action preferences, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL stop cheering terrorists and seeking the annihilation of Israel and its Jewish population.

If Israel frees thousands of jailed Palestinian terrorists, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL renounce violence and not murder any more Jews.

If Israel agrees to hold talks with representatives of the PLO, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL put a stop to Palestinian terrorism.

If Israel allows the Palestinians to hold elections, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not elect Hamas.

If the Palestinians elect Hamas, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not pursue a program of aggression and terrorism against Israel.

If Israel holds talks with terrorists, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL renounce their genocidal ambitions and seek peace.

If Israel conducts a unilateral withdrawal from all of southern Lebanon and allows Hezb'allah terrorists to station rockets on the border, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not launch any of them.

If Israel sits back while the Syrians exert their hegemony over Lebanon, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL rein in Hezb'allah and stop border attacks on Israel.

If Israel refrains from retaliating against Hezb'allah terrorists after they murder captive Israeli soldiers in cold blood, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not seek to kidnap any more soldiers.

If Israel agrees to one cease-fire after another with the Arabs, THEN MAYBE THE ARABS WILL eventually comply with one.

If Israel allows Arabs in Israel to build illegally, including on public lands, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL become pro-Israel and moderate.

If Israel agrees to the stationing of UN troops in Lebanon, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL actually do something to stop terror attacks on Israel.

If Israel ignores Hezb'allah border violations, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL come to an end.

If Israel lets the Muslims control the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL respond with friendship and moderation.

If Israel expels all Jews from Gaza as a gesture of friendship to the Palestinians, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL reciprocate with friendship toward the Jews.

If Israel turns the Gaza Strip over to the Palestinians, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not use it as a base for terror attacks against Israel.

If Israel turns the other cheek after Qassam rocket attacks from Gaza, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL stop being fired.

If Israel allows the Palestinian Authority to control parts of the West Bank, THEN MAYBE THE PALESTINIANS WILL not fire rockets at Jews the same way they do from Gaza.

If Israel returns the Golan Heights to Syria THEN MAYBE THE SYRIANS WILL seek peace and reject the idea of using the Heights to attack Israel again.

If Israel agrees to place its neck in the Oslo/Road Map/Saudi Plan noose, THEN MAYBE THE ARABS WILL not pull the rope.

If Israel officially agrees in principle to let the Palestinians have a state, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL abandon their agenda of annihilating Israel.

by on Jun. 21, 2009 at 11:08 PM
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Replies (1-10):
Gypsyuma
by Gold Member on Jun. 22, 2009 at 11:58 AM


Quoting copperpenny1954:

 

The Silly and Harmful Fantasy of "Two States for Two Peoples"

Steven Plaut takes apart the "two state solution" at Zionist Conspiracy (thanks to Israpundit). I am not sure Netanyahu is going along with this "solution" except under duress, but in any case, Plaut's analysis of the flaws of the "solution" itself is excellent.

Those who support the "Two States for Two Peoples" doctrine, and I suppose that now one must even include Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu in that category, no matter how reluctantly he joined it, have a very simple position. Indeed, the entire "Two States for Two Peoples" doctrine can be summed up in one simple idea, in fact in one simple sentence. It is this: maybe after the Palestinians get their own state, then they will agree to live in peace with Israel. No matter how complex and "scholarly" is any article or position paper that supports "Two States for Two Peoples" doctrine, once one clears away the verbiage it all boils down to that one simple idea.

To put it even more strongly, no one who is currently promoting "Two States for Two Peoples" would still be promoting it if they could be persuaded beyond all doubt that the Palestinians would NOT live in peace after getting their own state under "Two States for Two Peoples," or if they discovered with certainty that the second of those states ("Palestine") would be used for nothing other than terrorist aggression. Well, almost no one would. In the increasingly anti-Semitic Left around the world and even at the margins of the Israeli Far Left there are already people arguing that Israel should agree to "Two States for Two Peoples" even if it is totally clear and obvious that "Palestine" will be used for nothing besides terrorist aggression against Israel.

You know what I would like annihalated and thrown into the sea?  This ridiculous notion that anyone who opposes Zionist occupation and oppression is anti-Semitic.  What a load of crap.

They support that idea because they think that creating a Palestinian state is the right thing to do no matter how destructive it will be and no matter how disastrous for Israel will be the consequences of its creation. The more honest far Leftists defend this position by admitting that they want Israel annihilated and all of its Jews thrown into the sea.

Today to promote "Two States for Two Peoples" requires a bit of cognitive dissonance.  After all, Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip, turning it over to the "Palestinian Authority," and the whole world saw the consequences.

Everyone with half a brain would have read the MANY reports that have come to a unanimous conclusion that Zionist occupation of Gaza never ended.  They merely started occupying from the outside, creating a large prison.  The overwhelming evidence is irrefutable.  No need to try and bury your head in the sand to deny it.

They included 8000 rocket missiles aimed at Jewish civilians inside Israel.

You mean kind of like the BOMBS that level entire neighborhoods and chemical weapons used on the innocent civilians of Gaza?  Hell, even people seeking refuge in UN Schools were not spared.  It is hard to even stomach the comparison - tin cans versud CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

So those who insist that the Palestinian will desire to live in peace once they have their own state are about as consistent and credible as are people who argue that North Korea and Iran will seek genuine peace once they get nuclear weapons, or those that once insisted that Hitler would be satisfied once he gets the Sudetenland.

I think you and the rest of the Zionists need to look in the mirron about who wants peace.  Who has been trying to destroy all their neighbors?  WHo has the 4th largest military in the world so as to do so?  WHo just has some rocks and tin cans welded together?  This is really laughable. 

But more generally, the whole "Two States for Two Peoples" campaign is nothing more than a special case of the "Then Maybe they Will" doctrine.

For the past 30 years the Israeli political establishment has been prisoner to the "Then Maybe They Will" doctrine. Every major policy decision made by the government has reflected the power of wishful thinking and faith in the make-pretend. Here is a brief recapitulation of the doctrine:

If Israel gives Sinai back to the Egyptians, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL stop the Nazi-like anti-Semitic propaganda in their state-run media.

If Israel agrees to limited autonomy for Palestinians, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL stop seeking Israel's destruction and the world will not try to set up an independent Palestinian Arab terror state.

If Israel provides the Palestinian Authority with arms and funds, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not be used for terrorist atrocities against Israel.

If Israel grants its Arab citizens affirmative action preferences, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL stop cheering terrorists and seeking the annihilation of Israel and its Jewish population.

If Israel frees thousands of jailed Palestinian terrorists, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL renounce violence and not murder any more Jews.

If Israel agrees to hold talks with representatives of the PLO, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL put a stop to Palestinian terrorism.

If Israel allows the Palestinians to hold elections, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not elect Hamas.

If the Palestinians elect Hamas, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not pursue a program of aggression and terrorism against Israel.

If Israel holds talks with terrorists, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL renounce their genocidal ambitions and seek peace.

If Israel conducts a unilateral withdrawal from all of southern Lebanon and allows Hezb'allah terrorists to station rockets on the border, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not launch any of them.

If Israel sits back while the Syrians exert their hegemony over Lebanon, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL rein in Hezb'allah and stop border attacks on Israel.

If Israel refrains from retaliating against Hezb'allah terrorists after they murder captive Israeli soldiers in cold blood, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not seek to kidnap any more soldiers.

If Israel agrees to one cease-fire after another with the Arabs, THEN MAYBE THE ARABS WILL eventually comply with one.

If Israel allows Arabs in Israel to build illegally, including on public lands, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL become pro-Israel and moderate.

If Israel agrees to the stationing of UN troops in Lebanon, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL actually do something to stop terror attacks on Israel.

If Israel ignores Hezb'allah border violations, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL come to an end.

If Israel lets the Muslims control the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL respond with friendship and moderation.

If Israel expels all Jews from Gaza as a gesture of friendship to the Palestinians, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL reciprocate with friendship toward the Jews.

If Israel turns the Gaza Strip over to the Palestinians, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL not use it as a base for terror attacks against Israel.

If Israel turns the other cheek after Qassam rocket attacks from Gaza, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL stop being fired.

If Israel allows the Palestinian Authority to control parts of the West Bank, THEN MAYBE THE PALESTINIANS WILL not fire rockets at Jews the same way they do from Gaza.

If Israel returns the Golan Heights to Syria THEN MAYBE THE SYRIANS WILL seek peace and reject the idea of using the Heights to attack Israel again.

If Israel agrees to place its neck in the Oslo/Road Map/Saudi Plan noose, THEN MAYBE THE ARABS WILL not pull the rope.

If Israel officially agrees in principle to let the Palestinians have a state, THEN MAYBE THEY WILL abandon their agenda of annihilating Israel.

If ISRAEL end its apartheid state and becomes a truly democratic country where one person gets one vote, where you are not deemed sub-human because of your religion, where one religion does not attempt to hijack the holy sites of all faiths, where Muslims and all of Palestine's neighbors are not forced to pay for a history they had NOTHING to do with...... THEN MAYBE THERE WILL BE PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST and Israel will abandon their agenda to take over the entire Middle East.



 

sweetie00
by on Jun. 22, 2009 at 12:04 PM

you are delusional and I have better things to do with my time than argue with a psychopath. Have a nice day.

P.S.- There should be one state of Palestine where Jews can live side-by-side with Arabs and everything is hunky dorey, like they used to before a few crazies decided that Zionists needed to take it over and push out the people that were already - because "this is what god wanted"???

Malapertinent
by on Jun. 22, 2009 at 3:00 PM


Quoting sweetie00:

you are delusional and I have better things to do with my time than argue with a psychopath. Have a nice day.

P.S.- There should be one state of Palestine where Jews can live side-by-side with Arabs and everything is hunky dorey, like they used to before a few crazies decided that Zionists needed to take it over and push out the people that were already - because "this is what god wanted"???

Can I have a double rainbow while I ride my unicorn?


          

   

tericared
by on Jun. 22, 2009 at 4:03 PM


Quoting sweetie00:

you are delusional and I have better things to do with my time than argue with a psychopath. Have a nice day.

P.S.- There should be one state of Palestine where Jews can live side-by-side with Arabs and everything is hunky dorey, like they used to before a few crazies decided that Zionists needed to take it over and push out the people that were already - because "this is what god wanted"???


this,,,and why is not OK to forget the Jewish Holocaust but it is OK to forget that before the zionist invaded Palestine Jews, Christians and Muslims, DID live side by side....

Gypsyuma
by Gold Member on Jun. 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM


Quoting Malapertinent:


 

Can I have a double rainbow while I ride my unicorn?

Sure... and do us all a favor and just keep going.......up over the rainbow, and out of sight and mind.


 

Della529
by on Jun. 22, 2009 at 5:04 PM


Quoting Malapertinent:


Quoting sweetie00:

P.S.- There should be one state of Palestine where Jews can live side-by-side with Arabs and everything is hunky dorey, like they used to before a few crazies decided that Zionists needed to take it over and push out the people that were already - because "this is what god wanted"???

Can I have a double rainbow while I ride my unicorn?

Malapert, do you really believe that the Arabs and the Jews have never existed side by side prior to the push for a Zionist state?

realPatientMama
by on Jun. 23, 2009 at 5:15 AM


Quoting tericared:


Quoting sweetie00:

you are delusional and I have better things to do with my time than argue with a psychopath. Have a nice day.

P.S.- There should be one state of Palestine where Jews can live side-by-side with Arabs and everything is hunky dorey, like they used to before a few crazies decided that Zionists needed to take it over and push out the people that were already - because "this is what god wanted"???


this,,,and why is not OK to forget the Jewish Holocaust but it is OK to forget that before the zionist invaded Palestine Jews, Christians and Muslims, DID live side by side....

They sure did...and some STILL DO!  It's not that they want to forget it...they don't want to know the whole truth to begin with.

realPatientMama
by on Jun. 23, 2009 at 5:15 AM


Quoting Gypsyuma:

 

Quoting Malapertinent:


 

Can I have a double rainbow while I ride my unicorn?

Sure... and do us all a favor and just keep going.......up over the rainbow, and out of sight and mind.

laughing

Raintree
by Ruby Member on Jun. 23, 2009 at 9:03 AM

Hmm.. I notice there hasn't been a reply to the question regarding the peace that existed before the zionist movement took control of.. everything.

Stand up, this is comedy. The DNA lotto may have left you smart, but can you stand up to beauty- dictator of the heart. I can stand up for hope, faith, love but while I'm getting over certainty. Stop walking God across the road like a little old lady. - Bono

Gypsyuma
by Gold Member on Jun. 23, 2009 at 12:23 PM

Probably because that would not support the other side's position that the Palestinians simply want to toss all jews into the ocean.  The propoganda machine just keeps churning.


 

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