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Carseat rule problems...

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I don't care if I get slack for this, i'm not waiting until my baby is 2 to turn her around. 
There. Said it.
I hate the new law!!
My dd is 6 months and already in a new carseat because she's too big!! She's 28inches long, and 18.5lbs already!! She'll be squished if I wait that long to turn her around!!
 

by on Apr. 10, 2013 at 5:03 AM
Replies (1001-1010):
blue_apalt
by on Apr. 11, 2013 at 10:23 PM
1 mom liked this

I understand  the page states/shows the recommendations of car seat safety and I too hope the law catches up.  What I am saying though is that the law itself does not state the stuff the page gives you. The law is a "properly restrained" law.  The bottom part you are talking about is not in the law.  The law itself is what I quoted before: The operator of a motor vehicle operated on a highway shall provide for the protection of a person younger than eight years of age by using a child restraint device to restrain each person in the manner prescribed by the manufacturer of the device.    (I pulled the law wording from safekids, who does the certification for all car seat techs, but I see it's the exact wording the page you gave also has).   There is nothing in that wording that says flat out 1 yr and 20 lbs.  It's a properly restrained law.   Properly restrained, as I said in my 1st reply, means, by inference, what a manufacture states for proper use, and therefore, yes, as no manufacture out there allows for a seat to be ff'ing w/ a child that is under 1, it is illegal.    The difference I am trying to point out, and as I was trying to point out to HopesNDreams though is that while it is not actually stated, it is an inferred law.

Say there was a manufacture out there who made a seat and said you could ff a 6 month old.  In a state like SC though, it would still be illegal.  Why? Because SC law flat out says under 1 rf.  Here it would not be though because our law does not state 1 yr.  It only states that one follow manufacturers instructions (which would also then mean using a seat that fits your child's height, age, weight, etc).  States like OH state you can't be in a booster until 4, however there are manufactures who say 3.  It's illegal there because their law states an age, but not here, because our law only states proper restraint. It doesn't break it down beyond that.  

The things listed on the pg you are showing are a combo basic manufactures instruction and safety guidelines (ex: the pg lists that no one under 13 should be in the front -a lot of ppl still have their kids, both in and out of car seats, in the front ---it's not illegal to do so. A cop can't ticket you for it. There is no law against it, but it is against the recommendations of both manufactures and NHTSA if you have any other option for seating).   The things listed on the pg should be followed, and like you, I hope the law gets to the point of flat out stating most of these things, but it's general info based on safety guidelines and manufactures instructions...the website is giving what should be following, but the actual law, is only the top section, what I have quoted above.  The rest is not actually in the law...it is just the inferred aspect based on what manufactures and safety guidelines say.  

Does that make sense?

 


Quoting DawnPratt23:

The page clearly states the requirements, here is a screenshot for that site I provided, it is the pictures at the bottom with the contact info for a person to contact here in Utah. When I had my youngest in 2009 the hospital handed me a sheet that stated the law was 20lb and 1 yr, which is a no brainer for those who care about their kids.(not you, just a general statement) I hope that the law catches up with the safety standards. Too many moms take a huge risk with their kids.


Quoting blue_apalt:

 I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me?  Not sounding snarky, just honestly not sure.  There is nothing in that link that I didn't say.  ??   The law states "The operator of a motor vehicle operated on a highway shall provide for the protection of a person younger than eight years of age by using a child restraint device to restrain each person in the manner prescribed by the manufacturer of the device."http://www.safekidsutah.org/child-passenger-safety-cps/car-seat-safety-for-parentscaregivers/boost-til-8

That's what I said below.  The law requires that under X age (here it's 8), that they be properly restrained.   The law does not specify what that is other then then to say follow manufactures methods.  No where in the law does it say "rf <1 and 20 lbs" which many other state laws do specify.   We can infer, by the properly restrained clause that a child must be rf until 1 and 20lbs since that's what all manufactures state, but the law itself doesn't state that beyond saying they need to be properly restrained.

The site may specify what the "proper use" is but the law doesn't actually have it written in.  If say you got a ticket and take it to court its up to a judge to determine "proper use" and if the judge doesn't know it...well then...   Trust me we talked about this in depth.  One of the instructors was retired highway patrol.  He was one of hte 1st 30 ppl to become CPST certified in the nation.  He works w/ legislation and he went off a bit about how difficult it was to even get the "properly restrained" aspect to pass into written law here in UT because a lot of ppl were screaming that it was trampling into the area of telling parents how to raise their kids.   *roll eyes*  

So, my 1st post is correct as far as I can see, given what you posted.  The law requires properly restrained (properly restrained = manufactures requirements).  The law doesn't actually tell you what properly restrained is.


http://www.utahsafetycouncil.org/assets/pdf/utboosterlaw.pdf

UTAH’S BOOSTER SEAT LAW
COMMONLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Developed for Officers, Educators & Advocates

Q. What are the basic requirements of this law?
A. All children under 8 years of age must be properly
restrained in a child restraint or booster seat. There
is an exception to the law that states that children
younger than 8 are not required to be in a booster
seat if they are at least 57 inches tall. At that point,
they should use the lap and shoulder belt without a
booster. This is a primary enforcement law for
occupants under the age of 19. The penalty for
breaking this law is $45 and is enforceable

beginning May 5, 2000


Quoting DawnPratt23:

This Utah.gov site does specify the proper use for each age group. The risk people take for convenience is sad.  http://publicsafety.utah.gov/highwaysafety/cps.html

http://boosttil8.com/

Quoting blue_apalt:

I live in a state w/ the same law statements (Utah).  The law simply says "children under X age must be properly restrained."  The state doesn't define what "properly restrained" is exactly, BUT the poster who quoted this previously is right.  All seats in the US (most of Europe and Canada as well) state that you can not turn a child until 1 and 20 lbs. Therefore, by inference, you are improperly restraining a child, which IS against the law, if you turn them before 1 and 20 lbs.  That makes it illegal, even if the state mandate doesn't define themselves down to actually stating the numbers.


Quoting HopesNDreams:

Wrong.

PA law states that a child under age 4 must be restrained in an appropriate car seat in any place in the car. (There are different laws for 5 and up that aren't relevant here)

That's it. Everything else is a recommendation.



Quoting gilbertgrl627:

Her DD is only 6 months old. So if she's already turned her around, she IS breaking the law. My older two were turned around before 2yrs (it was shortly after they turned 1yr, but I wasn't really an active member on this site when that happened). While I agree it's up to that parent, it's against the law to turn her child around before they are 1yr and 20lbs. Which, according to her post, she is neither. My youngest is still not 20lbs (he's getting close) and he's almost 14 months (and still rear-facing). He has almost outgrown his infant seat length-wise.


Quoting HopesNDreams:

Once again people are confusing 'law' with 'recommendation'. They are not the same thing. You are not breaking the law turning your child before age two. You are not being a bad mother, either. You are making a patenting decision. Only moms who feel they do everything 100% correct should criticize you.













lexismom90
by on Apr. 11, 2013 at 10:32 PM
The seat we have says between 30 inches and I think 40/45 inches to forward face and anything under 30 to rear face. We just got this particular seat from he fire department as well brand new.

Quoting fullxbusymom:

Yes I know but you said she is too tall.  If she is too tall for the seat rear facing than she is front facing as well.  Hence you need a NEW car seat and then will be more than able to rear face the new seat.

Quoting lexismom90:

My seat has specifics for what height/weight they need to be at for rear facing and different ones for forward facing.



Quoting fullxbusymom:

Okay than she would have been to tall for the seat fron't facing as well.  So when you bought a convertable car seat they can all go rear facing.

Quoting lexismom90:

Both. She is 32 inches the seat recommends 30 and she is 25 lbs the seat said 20 to turn.





Quoting fullxbusymom:

Height or weight wise?

Quoting lexismom90:

My daughter is 15 1/2 months and she is already forward facing because she outgrew the rear facing position for the seat.




Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
fullxbusymom
by on Apr. 11, 2013 at 10:48 PM

You are jeopardizing her safety because the law isn't the safest it is highly antiquated and they are trying to pass it till two as we speak. 

You can doubt all you want I am constantly staying up to date on the most recent studies, articles, tests, standards and spend several hours a week every week doing this.  I have done this since 2010 so yes 3 yrs of this and I would be willing to bet it has accumulated to thousands of hours. 

I have the life experience I am FAR older than 30, I am 41 yrs old.  I seriously doubt that you actually talked to officers and they said that the evidence does not ever begin to support that!!  So I can guarantee that NO, no one will be condoning such a thing. 

Also I have NEVER supported my research by citing youtube either.  Nor have I ever cited a .com site. 

Quoting brooklynsmom811:


Wow really?? How am I jeopardizing my daughters life by obeying the LAW? RF is NOT a law till age 2, it is only a recommendation. Others on here are calling parents like me undecent? How are we undecent parents by obeying the law??? The LAW is till age 1 or 20 lbs. I seriously doubt you spent THOUSANDS of hours doing research, if you have then you have neglected your child, I mean how do you have time? I barely have time to clean the house a few times a week. I have also noticed that most parents that are so stuck on erf are young, most, but not all under the age of 30. You don't have the life experience that I have so don't come off like you know more.  I'm almost 45, have a almost 23 yr old daughter and a 20 month old daughter. Oh and also for your info, I talked to a few sheriffs deputys and a highway patrol officer, I asked them about erf, they all told me the same thing, beleive it or not, that they have seen MORE deaths so far from children being erf than ff. Most of the children who died in fact were rear facing! I even mentioned that it was a hot discussion on  Cafe Mom right now and how some have shared Youtube videos, 2 of the officers said Youtube is NOT a credible source to base anything on and yes I did check with the CDC so I know very well what I'm talking about. Now I just hope that what these officers shared with me will be made public soon.

Quoting fullxbusymom:

Actually you are not correct the #1 killer of accidental death in small children is car accidents. 

Oh and I didn't follow the sheeple or just accept it.  I literally did thousands of hours of research on the subject.  You in an effort to do what you want have seriously jeopardized your childs life by doing something so ignorant.

So honestly the only one who needs to wake up here is you. 

Quoting brooklynsmom811:

Sorry but I 100% agree with the OP.  Car accidents are NOT the number 1 killer of children! Your child has a much higher chance of being killed or injured at HOME than to ever be involved in a car crash. This is all about fear mongering! It seems to be working and that's very sad. My daughter is 20 months old and I put her ff at 12 months. You parents that erf are just doing everything that the government wants and following the masses like the sheeple you are. There I said it and it feels good too :) Wake up and stop beleiving everything  the media feeds you.





fullxbusymom
by on Apr. 11, 2013 at 10:50 PM

Sorry but this makes NO sense.  The height goes for rear or front facing.  The only thing that would be the weight limits rearfacing vs. FF'ing.

Quoting lexismom90:

The seat we have says between 30 inches and I think 40/45 inches to forward face and anything under 30 to rear face. We just got this particular seat from he fire department as well brand new.

Quoting fullxbusymom:

Yes I know but you said she is too tall.  If she is too tall for the seat rear facing than she is front facing as well.  Hence you need a NEW car seat and then will be more than able to rear face the new seat.

Quoting lexismom90:

My seat has specifics for what height/weight they need to be at for rear facing and different ones for forward facing.



Quoting fullxbusymom:

Okay than she would have been to tall for the seat fron't facing as well.  So when you bought a convertable car seat they can all go rear facing.

Quoting lexismom90:

Both. She is 32 inches the seat recommends 30 and she is 25 lbs the seat said 20 to turn.





Quoting fullxbusymom:

Height or weight wise?

Quoting lexismom90:

My daughter is 15 1/2 months and she is already forward facing because she outgrew the rear facing position for the seat.





Toxic.Stardust
by on Apr. 11, 2013 at 10:57 PM
2 moms liked this
Wait, what? The law doesn't say you HAVE to forward face when they're one year old and twenty pounds, just that they have to be at least that much before you can forward face. 1 and 20 is the BARE MINIMUM. You most certainly are not breaking the law if you rear face longer.

And I would like to see this proof that forward facing is safer. Because if it is like you claim, why don't we forward face from birth?


Quoting brooklynsmom811:


Wow really?? How am I jeopardizing my daughters life by obeying the LAW? RF is NOT a law till age 2, it is only a recommendation. Others on here are calling parents like me undecent? How are we undecent parents by obeying the law??? The LAW is till age 1 or 20 lbs. I seriously doubt you spent THOUSANDS of hours doing research, if you have then you have neglected your child, I mean how do you have time? I barely have time to clean the house a few times a week. I have also noticed that most parents that are so stuck on erf are young, most, but not all under the age of 30. You don't have the life experience that I have so don't come off like you know more.  I'm almost 45, have a almost 23 yr old daughter and a 20 month old daughter. Oh and also for your info, I talked to a few sheriffs deputys and a highway patrol officer, I asked them about erf, they all told me the same thing, beleive it or not, that they have seen MORE deaths so far from children being erf than ff. Most of the children who died in fact were rear facing! I even mentioned that it was a hot discussion on  Cafe Mom right now and how some have shared Youtube videos, 2 of the officers said Youtube is NOT a credible source to base anything on and yes I did check with the CDC so I know very well what I'm talking about. Now I just hope that what these officers shared with me will be made public soon.


Quoting fullxbusymom:

Actually you are not correct the #1 killer of accidental death in small children is car accidents. 

Oh and I didn't follow the sheeple or just accept it.  I literally did thousands of hours of research on the subject.  You in an effort to do what you want have seriously jeopardized your childs life by doing something so ignorant.

So honestly the only one who needs to wake up here is you. 

Quoting brooklynsmom811:

Sorry but I 100% agree with the OP.  Car accidents are NOT the number 1 killer of children! Your child has a much higher chance of being killed or injured at HOME than to ever be involved in a car crash. This is all about fear mongering! It seems to be working and that's very sad. My daughter is 20 months old and I put her ff at 12 months. You parents that erf are just doing everything that the government wants and following the masses like the sheeple you are. There I said it and it feels good too :) Wake up and stop beleiving everything  the media feeds you.





Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
DawnPratt23
by on Apr. 11, 2013 at 11:04 PM
1 mom liked this

I understand and researched it more. I am sickend that Utah is so behind in safety for children. My home state of NM is more proactive in the law, very clear.

I will have to try and find that sheet I received from McKayDee when I had my daughter, I am certain it said 1 yr and 20 lbs.

This topic is a sensitive one for me, I was in a wreck in 2000 that has forever changed what I can and can't do. I am just lucky my oldest was not with me at the time. His booster was crunched into the door. I was t boned, 50 mile impact, car was totaled because someone didn't want to stop for a red light. I am 5'0 and was 95 lbs at the time- it still forever effected my spine.

Kids need more protection.

Quoting blue_apalt:

I understand  the page states/shows the recommendations of car seat safety and I too hope the law catches up.  What I am saying though is that the law itself does not state the stuff the page gives you. The law is a "properly restrained" law.  The bottom part you are talking about is not in the law.  The law itself is what I quoted before: The operator of a motor vehicle operated on a highway shall provide for the protection of a person younger than eight years of age by using a child restraint device to restrain each person in the manner prescribed by the manufacturer of the device.    (I pulled the law wording from safekids, who does the certification for all car seat techs, but I see it's the exact wording the page you gave also has).   There is nothing in that wording that says flat out 1 yr and 20 lbs.  It's a properly restrained law.   Properly restrained, as I said in my 1st reply, means, by inference, what a manufacture states for proper use, and therefore, yes, as no manufacture out there allows for a seat to be ff'ing w/ a child that is under 1, it is illegal.    The difference I am trying to point out, and as I was trying to point out to HopesNDreams though is that while it is not actually stated, it is an inferred law.

Say there was a manufacture out there who made a seat and said you could ff a 6 month old.  In a state like SC though, it would still be illegal.  Why? Because SC law flat out says under 1 rf.  Here it would not be though because our law does not state 1 yr.  It only states that one follow manufacturers instructions (which would also then mean using a seat that fits your child's height, age, weight, etc).  States like OH state you can't be in a booster until 4, however there are manufactures who say 3.  It's illegal there because their law states an age, but not here, because our law only states proper restraint. It doesn't break it down beyond that.  

The things listed on the pg you are showing are a combo basic manufactures instruction and safety guidelines (ex: the pg lists that no one under 13 should be in the front -a lot of ppl still have their kids, both in and out of car seats, in the front ---it's not illegal to do so. A cop can't ticket you for it. There is no law against it, but it is against the recommendations of both manufactures and NHTSA if you have any other option for seating).   The things listed on the pg should be followed, and like you, I hope the law gets to the point of flat out stating most of these things, but it's general info based on safety guidelines and manufactures instructions...the website is giving what should be following, but the actual law, is only the top section, what I have quoted above.  The rest is not actually in the law...it is just the inferred aspect based on what manufactures and safety guidelines say.  

Does that make sense?

 


Quoting DawnPratt23:

The page clearly states the requirements, here is a screenshot for that site I provided, it is the pictures at the bottom with the contact info for a person to contact here in Utah. When I had my youngest in 2009 the hospital handed me a sheet that stated the law was 20lb and 1 yr, which is a no brainer for those who care about their kids.(not you, just a general statement) I hope that the law catches up with the safety standards. Too many moms take a huge risk with their kids.


Quoting blue_apalt:

 I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me?  Not sounding snarky, just honestly not sure.  There is nothing in that link that I didn't say.  ??   The law states "The operator of a motor vehicle operated on a highway shall provide for the protection of a person younger than eight years of age by using a child restraint device to restrain each person in the manner prescribed by the manufacturer of the device."http://www.safekidsutah.org/child-passenger-safety-cps/car-seat-safety-for-parentscaregivers/boost-til-8

That's what I said below.  The law requires that under X age (here it's 8), that they be properly restrained.   The law does not specify what that is other then then to say follow manufactures methods.  No where in the law does it say "rf <1 and 20 lbs" which many other state laws do specify.   We can infer, by the properly restrained clause that a child must be rf until 1 and 20lbs since that's what all manufactures state, but the law itself doesn't state that beyond saying they need to be properly restrained.

The site may specify what the "proper use" is but the law doesn't actually have it written in.  If say you got a ticket and take it to court its up to a judge to determine "proper use" and if the judge doesn't know it...well then...   Trust me we talked about this in depth.  One of the instructors was retired highway patrol.  He was one of hte 1st 30 ppl to become CPST certified in the nation.  He works w/ legislation and he went off a bit about how difficult it was to even get the "properly restrained" aspect to pass into written law here in UT because a lot of ppl were screaming that it was trampling into the area of telling parents how to raise their kids.   *roll eyes*  

So, my 1st post is correct as far as I can see, given what you posted.  The law requires properly restrained (properly restrained = manufactures requirements).  The law doesn't actually tell you what properly restrained is.


http://www.utahsafetycouncil.org/assets/pdf/utboosterlaw.pdf

UTAH’S BOOSTER SEAT LAW
COMMONLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Developed for Officers, Educators & Advocates

Q. What are the basic requirements of this law?
A. All children under 8 years of age must be properly
restrained in a child restraint or booster seat. There
is an exception to the law that states that children
younger than 8 are not required to be in a booster
seat if they are at least 57 inches tall. At that point,
they should use the lap and shoulder belt without a
booster. This is a primary enforcement law for
occupants under the age of 19. The penalty for
breaking this law is $45 and is enforceable

beginning May 5, 2000


Quoting DawnPratt23:

This Utah.gov site does specify the proper use for each age group. The risk people take for convenience is sad.  http://publicsafety.utah.gov/highwaysafety/cps.html

http://boosttil8.com/

Quoting blue_apalt:

I live in a state w/ the same law statements (Utah).  The law simply says "children under X age must be properly restrained."  The state doesn't define what "properly restrained" is exactly, BUT the poster who quoted this previously is right.  All seats in the US (most of Europe and Canada as well) state that you can not turn a child until 1 and 20 lbs. Therefore, by inference, you are improperly restraining a child, which IS against the law, if you turn them before 1 and 20 lbs.  That makes it illegal, even if the state mandate doesn't define themselves down to actually stating the numbers.


Quoting HopesNDreams:

Wrong.

PA law states that a child under age 4 must be restrained in an appropriate car seat in any place in the car. (There are different laws for 5 and up that aren't relevant here)

That's it. Everything else is a recommendation.



Quoting gilbertgrl627:

Her DD is only 6 months old. So if she's already turned her around, she IS breaking the law. My older two were turned around before 2yrs (it was shortly after they turned 1yr, but I wasn't really an active member on this site when that happened). While I agree it's up to that parent, it's against the law to turn her child around before they are 1yr and 20lbs. Which, according to her post, she is neither. My youngest is still not 20lbs (he's getting close) and he's almost 14 months (and still rear-facing). He has almost outgrown his infant seat length-wise.


Quoting HopesNDreams:

Once again people are confusing 'law' with 'recommendation'. They are not the same thing. You are not breaking the law turning your child before age two. You are not being a bad mother, either. You are making a patenting decision. Only moms who feel they do everything 100% correct should criticize you.













JRSTPKEN
by on Apr. 11, 2013 at 11:39 PM
2 moms liked this
Based on my daughters current growth pattern, she is probably only going to be 4'10" as an adult. If she had to pass the height test too, she would be in a booster until high school. My niece is a sophomore and just recently hit the height mark. Are we really going to have high schoolers in boosters? Again, I'm all for safety but I'm not asking my middle schooler or high schooler to sit in a car seat.


Quoting emkirkley:


crissysworld
by on Apr. 12, 2013 at 12:23 AM

 When I went online to walmart.com to look at carseats, I looked at the Dora and Spongebob and those have the ages. I saw them in the store and it was either on the box or the tag. I found some others. That is one of the boosters, we have this one..

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Harmony-Juvenile-Youth-Booster-Car-Seat-Chocolate/16939671

Quoting BabiesAre2Sweet:

Really? I've honestly never seen one. That is strange they would go by age when its the childs weight that should be determining if they need to move up to the next seat.


Quoting crissysworld:

 

Some do have the ages on them. 


Quoting BabiesAre2Sweet:

Car seats and booster seats do not go by a childs age. Instead they go by the child's weight which makes sense.

 


 



 

       my name is crista, wife to kevin, stepmom to dillon, Proud Fostermom, i lost my job thanks to Chrysler and am looking for a new one  and go to college part time. ttc our first with pcos since september 2000, fertility is a very sensitive issue for me. i am prolife, believe in cio, vaccinating  . We lost our first baby at 6 weeks along May of 2011. We are Foster Parents hoping to adopt.

CowboysAngel02
by on Apr. 12, 2013 at 2:24 AM
Quoting blue_apalt:


well the fire department where I came from that was run by my uncle, had people trained in car seat safety and they held classes at the department. That's where I got my facts thank you very much. I an also in the medial fuels and I never says Dr and nurses knew what they were doing.
themissheather
by Bronze Member on Apr. 12, 2013 at 2:28 AM
1 mom liked this
Wow. You're an idiot.

Quoting brooklynsmom811:


Wow really?? How am I jeopardizing my daughters life by obeying the LAW? RF is NOT a law till age 2, it is only a recommendation. Others on here are calling parents like me undecent? How are we undecent parents by obeying the law??? The LAW is till age 1 or 20 lbs. I seriously doubt you spent THOUSANDS of hours doing research, if you have then you have neglected your child, I mean how do you have time? I barely have time to clean the house a few times a week. I have also noticed that most parents that are so stuck on erf are young, most, but not all under the age of 30. You don't have the life experience that I have so don't come off like you know more.  I'm almost 45, have a almost 23 yr old daughter and a 20 month old daughter. Oh and also for your info, I talked to a few sheriffs deputys and a highway patrol officer, I asked them about erf, they all told me the same thing, beleive it or not, that they have seen MORE deaths so far from children being erf than ff. Most of the children who died in fact were rear facing! I even mentioned that it was a hot discussion on  Cafe Mom right now and how some have shared Youtube videos, 2 of the officers said Youtube is NOT a credible source to base anything on and yes I did check with the CDC so I know very well what I'm talking about. Now I just hope that what these officers shared with me will be made public soon.


Quoting fullxbusymom:

Actually you are not correct the #1 killer of accidental death in small children is car accidents. 

Oh and I didn't follow the sheeple or just accept it.  I literally did thousands of hours of research on the subject.  You in an effort to do what you want have seriously jeopardized your childs life by doing something so ignorant.

So honestly the only one who needs to wake up here is you. 

Quoting brooklynsmom811:

Sorry but I 100% agree with the OP.  Car accidents are NOT the number 1 killer of children! Your child has a much higher chance of being killed or injured at HOME than to ever be involved in a car crash. This is all about fear mongering! It seems to be working and that's very sad. My daughter is 20 months old and I put her ff at 12 months. You parents that erf are just doing everything that the government wants and following the masses like the sheeple you are. There I said it and it feels good too :) Wake up and stop beleiving everything  the media feeds you.





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