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How to be a good little girl, per the hospital. I'm not a good girl. *** UPDATE

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UPDATED INFO FOR THOSE WHO HAVE MISREAD **** I never said I know more than my doctor.

I EXPECT informed consent to be a requirement before any procedure, just like any other thing you go to the hospital for. They tell you the options the ones they like, the ones they don't like, risks and benefits and I get to choose. THEY EDUCATE, I CHOOSE.

If anyone wants to go on faith and blindly accept anything they want, that is fine I won't stop you. That is your business. You get your choices, I get mine.

I might wear the stupid hospital gown, but I don't want to be bullied into it. I don't know what I will feel most comfortable in, until I get there. But it is really funny that some think  that bulling is ok in the hospital, but not in school's?


My dr wanted me to go in today to L&D to get an NST because he thinks I am 42 weeks, I think that I am 39 weeks. Late ultrasounds vs LMP. Did NST Thursday, Tues, Thursday, today on Sunday, and then have appt to go back on Tuesday. So we have done this for a while. I don't think they are really needed, I am just going along with some of his wishes. I have told him NO on induction. Just keeping the peace really going along with the NST's.

While at the hospital they give me a pamphlet on how to be a good patient.

Admission. Upon arrival to the childbirth suite you will be INSTRUCTED to change into a hospital gown ... A vaginal exam will be done to see if your cervix is ready for the baby to come.
It says not to worry we are assessing your baby continuously. IE STAY IN BED WITH THE NST MONITORS ON AT ALL TIMES.

You are staying to deliver your baby. IV fluids WILL BE STARTED in your hand or arm. This will help in the prevention of dehydration and/or low blood sugar.

Can I eat or drink? While you are in active labor most physicians WILL ONLY ALLOW clear liquids and ice.

Vaginal Delivery. When your cervix if fully dilated you WILL BE INSTRUCTED to start pushing....If the baby appears healthy and is breathing well, he may be placed on your stomach.

I was asked if I had any instructions for the nursery. I said I didn't plan on my child going to the nursery. THE BABY CAN'T BE IN YOUR ROOM UNLESS SOMEONE IS AWAKE is what I was told. Hubby said I will be here and be awake if she isn't.

I think me being comfortable, wearing what I want because I am not sick, being able to move is going to do more to progress my labor than you hooking me to a useless machine for the duration. Laying on my back in pain not moving isn't going to fly. You might get 20 mins. Might. I sure am not allowing you to start a non medically needed IV, I am giving birth I am not SICK. I will prevent dehydration and low blood sugar the old fashioned way. And I am pretty sure I will know when I need to push. Why do you believe that my cervix is just yours to grope as you please? I mean really the baby is going to come regardless if you check or not. PS you have no rights over my child and where he will be. He needs to come to me immediately. You don't get to tell me how soon I can see him or when I get to have him in my room. He is MINE. He will be with a parent at all times. (he has an umbilical cord and if anything is wrong, you need to leave it intact to allow you time to work on him vs detaching him from his built in life support)

It is silly in this day and age that hospitals think they get to dictate your birth. They use words to make it sound like you have no options. I didn't bother addressing any of this today. No need to start issues early. But Hubby is like wait a min who do they think they are. You can ask, you can suggest, you don't get to demand. Too bad home births are not legal in my state. But after today, Hubby FULLY understands why you would not want to get to the hospital early.




by on Oct. 7, 2012 at 4:15 PM
Replies (541-550):
Jaybo
by on Oct. 11, 2012 at 11:45 AM


Quoting orangeshirt:

And if people believe your drivel then they are setting themselves up for potentially life-threatening interventions. Inductions, epis, and c-sections can have catastrophic side effects, so pardon me while I laugh at you.
Quoting Jaybo:



Nice try, but you're the one encouraging moms to be to deny all medical intervention. If one of those moms to be dies, or her baby dies because they followed your advice, you will be the cause of that death.

orangeshirt
by on Oct. 11, 2012 at 11:53 AM
First of all, I've never tried to pass myself off as an expert offering advice. I'm offering my opinion, not unlike you who encourages women to just sit back and let doctors take the reins. Do you think that is doing us women any favors? If so, you are actively ignoring a wealth of evidence to the contrary. Births without interventions lead to less unnecessary interventions and less surgical births, but more happy, healthy moms and babies.

I simply encourage women to question the status quo, do their own independent research and make an informed decision based on solid evidence, not scare tactics and their doctors' potentially misguided routines.


Quoting Jaybo:



Quoting orangeshirt:

And if people believe your drivel then they are setting themselves up for potentially life-threatening interventions. Inductions, epis, and c-sections can have catastrophic side effects, so pardon me while I laugh at you.
Quoting Jaybo:




Nice try, but you're the one encouraging moms to be to deny all medical intervention. If one of those moms to be dies, or her baby dies because they followed your advice, you will be the cause of that death.


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MsDenuninani
by New Member on Oct. 11, 2012 at 11:55 AM


Quoting gumeshoe:

I have no control over what you take an an insult. Feel free to leave the conversation any time you want. The people in this discussion believe in informed consent. Make you own post on how following your doctors and hospitals directions at all times, is the best everyone can do for their baby. Reassure people that doctors and hospitals never lead you down the wrong path. Explain to them that doctors and hospitals always tell you what you need to know and suggest the best option. And that following their prefered advice is the way for them to go. You will find I can skip right over that post.

YOU:Your story was a personal story in which you basically said you were going to second guess the doctor's instructions.

My doctor doesn't care about CFM, gowns, IV's. I never said he told me this was a requirement. My post is the hospital wants these things and per the wording of the pamphlet wants to make mothers think they have no choice.

YOU: I have no interest in getting into a discussion that I listed above because I really don't care. AND At no point did you list a position based on sound medical judgment.

But here you are REPEATEDLY posting to my post that the hospital is trying to dictate things that do no improve outcomes of birth. 85% of women in Holland birth at home, no gowns, iv's, drugs, in whatever position they want. They have better outcomes. Their HEALTH PROFESSIONALS disagree with the US HEALTH PROFESSIONALS and they have the numbers to back it up. We are the worst of the worst in birth outcomes. Stick your fingers in your ears and say lalalala all you want. WE ARE DEAD LAST.

YOU say that you don't have medical expertise to make these medical decisions.

If your wonderful health professionals educated you of the choices you have their fav and the ones they don't like, risks and benefits, then you would have the needed info. But you trust you don't need informed consent. ACOG expects you to have informed consent regardless if you want to participate in the management of your care or not. #2

Sometimes another exception to the rule of informed consent is thought to occur in the rare situation when a patient effectively waives her right to give it. This can take the form of refusing information necessary for an informed decision, or simply refusing altogether to make any decision. However, the following two statements are reasons for not considering this an exception of the same type as the other exceptions:

  1. A waiver in such instances seems to be itself an exercise of choice, and its acceptance can be part of respect for the patient's autonomy.
  2. Implicit in the ethical concept of informed consent is the goal of maximizing a patient's freedoms, which means that waivers should not be accepted complacently without some concern for the causes of the patient's desire not to participate in the management of her care.

YOU I have no interest in getting into a discussion that I listed above because I really don't care

Ok stop typing. Sit on your hands until you get over the urge to keep jumping back in the fray. If you didn't care you wouldn't type. So stop lying, you are here typing because you want to be. You want to advocate women being good little girls, not seeking to educate themselves. Are you going to be there when these women who didn't understand they NEEDED to educate themselves, get railroaded into something they never wanted all the fault of the dr, but they are in pain 6months to a year after their unneeded csection, because they had faith. No you are going to be one of the nasty ones saying at least you have a healthy baby.

Sorry your car is totaled due to no fault of your own and no you can't fix it but so much, its still going to be a huge problem for you but at least you lived. You put this arguement in any other context and it doesn't fly.

I have done my research and have made my decisions. HEALTH PROFESSIONALS CAN'T MAKE UP THEIR MINDS. Neither can hospitals because there are hospitals in other locations that care nothing about these items. So you move to another state and magically its safe not to have an IV? No it's billable procedures not evidence based medicine that is being practiced. If these where truths in the pamphlet then every hospital in every state would do it and in every industiralizded country.

I have no control over what you take an an insult.

Of course you don't.  And I'm not accusing you of intentionally doing anything.  I think your feelings are valid; it's your tone I objected to, to the extent it felt dismissive of hopsitals and doctors.  To be honest, that's really the only thing I've been repeating - a defense of doctors, hospitals, and procedures. 

My post is the hospital wants these things and per the wording of the pamphlet wants to make mothers think they have no choice.

Point taken. The pamphlet could also simply be describing what happens when you get there and check in, so people are not taken by suprise. Just as you have no control over what I take as an insult, the pamphlet has no control over your reaction to it.

But here you are REPEATEDLY posting to my post that the hospital is trying to dictate things that do no improve outcomes of birth.

I'm repeatedly responding to your quotes of me.  I'm not repeatedly saying doctors or hospitals should or should not do anything.  I don't have the expertise for that.

Further, the hospital is bigger than the birthing unit.  They have their own needs, which serve patients throughout the entire hospital, and it is entirely possible for disruption of that ecosystem to upset things that go bigger than you, bigger than the birthing unit.  Bluntly put, that was my experience with the hospital. 

Stick your fingers in your ears and say lalalala all you want.

I haven't done that.  I should also say that, for me, birth outcome is healthy baby, healthy mother.  I don't care how you get there.  If hospital procedures are impeding that, than I agree, it's a problem.

If your wonderful health professionals educated you of the choices you have their fav and the ones they don't like, risks and benefits, then you would have the needed info.

I don't want it.  I'm busy enough.  I outsource tasks to others because I've got enough crap to do. This is simply one area of my life where I'm happy to have others figure it out.  I will push back on what is important to me, and let the rest go.  This is important to you, so push back.  Not mad at you for it.  Several hundred replies ago, I read someone else's story of how they dealt with their hospital and doctor, and I thought it was great -- probably because it came with a respect for the hospital's position. 

Ok stop typing. Sit on your hands until you get over the urge to keep jumping back in the fray. If you didn't care you wouldn't type. So stop lying, you are here typing because you want to be. You want to advocate women being good little girls, not seeking to educate themselves. Are you going to be there when these women who didn't understand they NEEDED to educate themselves, get railroaded into something they never wanted all the fault of the dr, but they are in pain 6months to a year after their unneeded csection, because they had faith. No you are going to be one of the nasty ones saying at least you have a healthy baby.

With all do respect -- where did I advocate anything?  Seriously?  If I sound like I'm advocating, then. . .that's a mistake.  Not trying to advocate anything here.  Since, ostensibly, what I am advocating is the status quo, there would be little need for it anyway.

When I say "I don't care" what I'm saying is -- again -- how a baby is brought into the world isn't that important to me.  In this way, I'm just different from you.  Saying that doesn't make me some crazy anti-education advocate. And, please don't tell me what I am "going to be" when talking to someone who is in pain.  You don't know me well enough to make such an assumption. I could just as easily say to you that when you second-guess a doctor's or hospital's judment on behalf of another woman, you are putting yourself squarely in between she and someone else, making it harder for her to trust her doctor, and then causing unnecessary stress and anxiety for her, with the possible ramification that she turn down medically necessary treatment. That's the flip side to your argument.

You said something.  I pushed back.  I've been fairly specific as to why I did so.  Don't think there's much more to say here.  But I have learned some things from orangeshirt, and therefore I'm grateful for the conversation.

 

Jaybo
by on Oct. 11, 2012 at 12:12 PM


Quoting gumeshoe:

No Jaybo you are the one path blind faith wonder. Hail be to your doctor and hospital, they are always right is your gig. I am trying to promote educated and informed women making their own choices. Even when their choices aren't the best. I have seen many here who knew better and they where tired of being pregnant and they get one of these lame excuses and they go along with it. That is their choice. I don't stop them or say anything, because they know the choice they are making.

We want women to be informed that unscrupulous doctors use these silly excuses to bully women into unneeded interventions. Once women know this the go check for further info about, going oh my god a doctor would never. Then they find out, crap there are doctors that would. They are done with you, induce you, section you and see you in 6 weeks. They learn there are things to ask, they learn low water, drink more and measure again. They learn to ask how much water do you see. How do you know the truth of what you are being told, unless you know what the numbers mean? One office in town here never lets a woman go over 38 weeks. They automatically find a reason to schedule for you an induction for 38 weeks. Do you think that is put on the wall of their office? Do you think that is put on their website? Unless you know many women at that practice, how can you catch them doing this unscrupulous practice? 

An educated woman who knows the numbers, who knows to ask to recheck again tomorrow after she has had a chance to rehydrate is what we want. So she can know ok the water is low or nope I was just not hydrated. This is the spark for women to read and research for themselves because you can't blindly trust your doctor.

Quoting Jaybo:

Do you have any idea of what you might be doing? What if even one mother to be reading this thread, takes what you say about fabricated diagnoses as being the truth, refuses medical intervention & she or her baby dies as a result?  It's all fine and dandy you believe you're more of an expert on childbirth than any member of the medical profession, but when you blatantly push your "expert advice" as being the only advice to follow, you have crossed the line.  

Quoting orangeshirt:

I was speaking specifically about inductions and surgical births which are done for reasons that are not medically indicated, but rather to make the process less unpredictable and less inefficient than it naturally is. Reasons such as being "overdue" or "baby is too big" or "mother's pelvis is too small" or "baby is malpositioned" or "baby is stuck". Fabricated diagnoses such as failure to progress or fetal distress, both of which can be avoided by not only denying medical interventions but also refusing to do most of the things listed in the OPs pamphlet.

 

 

Little whiner girl, you made you point on page 1. We all know you hate hospitals, hate doctors, hate nurses, hate pamphlets, hate rules, hate being instructed, hate hospital gowns, blah, blah, blah.

We all know you know more than any member of the medical profession, & we all know when you go to the hospital to have your baby, you'll be the most unfriendly & demanding patient they've ever had. 

Now give it a rest.

 

MsDenuninani
by New Member on Oct. 11, 2012 at 12:16 PM

 

Quoting gumeshoe:

Its been quite obvious that you don't care for a vaginal delivery for a while now.

This post is about women who do want vaginal uninterferred with vaginal delveries. That is what we are advocating for here. Unfortunately the pamphlet is TERRIBLE information and makes it far more likely that women will not have a natural vaginal birth. These things don't make a woman comfortable and safe. This is just stuff to mess with women and manage/schedule their births. No one would mess with a woman's period to say your period is 3 days that is too short, oh and your friend has one for 7 days that is too long, everyone has to be 4 or 5 days only. But her birth is supposed to be timed to their schdule regardless that the mother and baby are fine.

It is safer to be a horse birthing in a barn. Just like the best midwives do the least and just are lifeguards only to jump in if needed. Siting in the corner just aa a reassuring presence.

http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/saferbirthinabarn.asp

 

Quoting MsDenuninani:

I do think it's a difference in perspective.  I have no preference for a natural, vaginal birth. 

That said, the points you make about the pamphlet are valid, and for those who want to have a natural, vaginal birth, I think it is essential informaton.   

 

Interesting.  My birth experience was quite crazy, and I had to be induced, for none of the reasons I've seen mentioned on this board so far.  I was scared that I would have to have a c-section, and I told my doctor.  My doctor said that she personally held the record for fewest c-sections, and for that she was proud.  This was reassuring. I did have a vaginal birth, and then a lot of other crap happened -- and trust in my doctor and the hospital at that time was absolutely essential for my well-being.

MsDenuninani
by New Member on Oct. 11, 2012 at 12:29 PM
1 mom liked this


Quoting louzannalady:

I am not comforted by the fact we have the SECOND HIGHEST maternal death rate of all industrialized nations! GUAM has fewer maternal deaths than we do! We spend more on maternal health than any industrialized nation for the second WORST outcome! The WHO even states that one in three births should NOT be ending in major surgery. I am appalled that the most performed surgery in the States are c-sections. Forty-six percent of those c-sections are repeat c-sections. Countries with very low intervention rates, more home births, with midwives attending low-risk births instead of surgeons have the lowest maternal AND infant mortality rates. This indicates there are HUGE issues with the medical model of "care" that we have in this country! Furthermore, doctors do see more births than I do, you are right. BUT, in this country very, very few actually see a labor without interventions. Unless a doctor studies abroad, it is very unlikely during their training they will see a labor without a woman tethered to machines and IV and not having labor augmented in some way. They are trained as surgeons, which is a blessing because there are times, when surgery truly will save a life and it is very much needed, but they are so desensitized to surgery that many cannot acknowledge that the interventions they just put a low-risk mom under, just put her on that table. I just have a hard time having faith in such a defective system that puts the convenience of providers and hospital staff as the priority, instead of evidence-based practices.  

Quoting MsDenuninani:

 

Quoting gumeshoe:

If you didn't want to get into that type of conversation you should have never replied to my post. The whole point of my post is this hospital and some doctors are trying to take over the birthing process and how they are dismissive of the woman's choices and comfort, in favor of non evidence based processes. The woman is not a vessel you can treat however you want and pop out that baby. That woman needs to be respected to be safe and unhindered in birth so that she can progress and not stall, due to fight or flight.

You can't really refuse a csection after you cooperate with the hospital and that puts your baby in distress. Or the dead baby card keeps getting thrown in your face. Heaven forbid your baby wants to use that 41st week or 42nd week. No it isn't easy for a woman to know if she is being lied to or not. Oh you didn't dilate, prep for surgery. She was dilating, just he told her she wasn't, he just was ready to go home. Nurse had already put the dilation change in the official record. You have low water, prep for surgery, not drink more water and we will check again tomorrow.

Quoting MsDenuninani:  And a woman can refuse a c-section (I hope), as she can birth control, and do things naturally. 

I feel like I'm getting into one of those "the birthing process has been taken over by doctors and hospitals" arguments, which was never my intention.    From my perspective, I pay doctors for their training and expertise and I expect them to use it.  I see your point, but it still feels to narrow to me as a justification for what is, in my personal view, the overall dismissive nature of the OP's post.  

 

Gumshoe, I call BS on that.

Your original post did not state any of the information that was later provided to me.  Your story was a personal story in which you basically said you were going to second guess the doctor's instructions.  At no point did you list a position based on sound medical judgment.  Others have, you have not.

You said it was silly to allow a hospital to "dictate your birth."  My point is you are there, in their ecosystem, among people who have delivered and seen far more babies than you have.  If those points don't move you, and I'm not saying they have to -- it is YOUR birth, definitely -- that's fine.

I posted an opposing point of view -- not to convince you to listen to the doctors -- but because I don't have a personal need to second guess medical expertise of others, especially if I do not have my own.  This could be for a variety of reasons, but probably because I am myself a profeessional and I know what it is like to have clients pay me for advice, and then not take it, with disastrous results.  

I have no interest in getting into a discussion that I listed above because I really don't care.  I have friends who are midwives, and they complain about this all the time, and I'm just generally unmoved.  Probably because, unlike others, I am comforted by doctors and experts and degrees and such.  You say that a woman is not a vessal, and I agree, but doctors have a prespective that treats ALL bodies as such, it's the downside of western medicine, and I, frankly, seek the benefits of western medicine, so it simply doesn't bother me. 

Under your definition, I'm a "good little girl."  Pardon me if I'm a bit insulted by the characterization.


I agree with your point about evidence-based practices. 

Jaybo
by on Oct. 11, 2012 at 2:08 PM


Quoting orangeshirt:

First of all, I've never tried to pass myself off as an expert offering advice. I'm offering my opinion, not unlike you who encourages women to just sit back and let doctors take the reins. Do you think that is doing us women any favors? If so, you are actively ignoring a wealth of evidence to the contrary. Births without interventions lead to less unnecessary interventions and less surgical births, but more happy, healthy moms and babies.

I simply encourage women to question the status quo, do their own independent research and make an informed decision based on solid evidence, not scare tactics and their doctors' potentially misguided routines.


Quoting Jaybo:

 


Quoting orangeshirt:

And if people believe your drivel then they are setting themselves up for potentially life-threatening interventions. Inductions, epis, and c-sections can have catastrophic side effects, so pardon me while I laugh at you.
Quoting Jaybo:




Nice try, but you're the one encouraging moms to be to deny all medical intervention. If one of those moms to be dies, or her baby dies because they followed your advice, you will be the cause of that death.



I hate to burst your bubble, but yes, you have been passing yourself off as an expert & you've also been using scare tactics as well. All you've done throughout the thread is encourage women to ignore any advice from a member of the medical profession, and take your advice instead. I saw no wording from you that implied what you were saying, was just your opinion.

In my world, people like you, who have no medical credentials, & who encourage other women to deny all medical intervention/help, when it could very well mean the difference between life or death, you have crossed the line. As said earlier, is a woman reading your *advice* takes it as gospel, & that women dies, or her newborn dies, her death or her babies death will be on your shoulders.   

As for your accusation that I encourage women to sit back and let doctors take the rein, not once have I said that. I've seen enough doctors & specialists in my lifetime to know not all doctors are "perfect", but I also know there's a lot of knowledgeable doctors out there. I also know, without that knowledge & care from more than one doctor, I would not be here today. 

We all know or should know, if a doctor talks to you, or treats you as if you don't have a brain, you find another doctor who will talk and treat you as an equal. We all know or should know, we have a voice in the treatment our doctors prescribe, & most of us do speak up, but in your world & the OPs world, that's not good enough. According to you & the OP, doctors are ignorant dolts who only want your money, & women,especially pregnant women, should ignore any and all advice they offer.   

Why don't we leave it at this. You live in your world where you shun doctors and any medical intervention/help, & I'll live in my world where I do not shun doctors & I do accept medical intervention/help.  

orangeshirt
by on Oct. 11, 2012 at 3:53 PM
2 moms liked this
I appreciate that you are desperately trying to fit me into a neat little box, but that's not the case. As has happened FREQUENTLY throughout this thread, you have made broad assumptions based on a few statements. I don't shun doctors in general. If I'm sick, I get treated. Pregnancy is not a sickness, so I see no reason to seek medical help.
Quoting Jaybo:
Jenn820
by on Oct. 11, 2012 at 4:42 PM
Actually, I think that you've been misinformed about home births. If you can hire a certified nurse midwife (vs a certified professional midwife) legally in all 50
States for a home birth...you just have to find one.
I'm of tat if you don't like how your hospital does things than find a different place to deliver your baby. I don't particularly like being told what to do but most of those policies are there or a reason. They don't want you to eat or drink because labor can be rough on your stomach and you can end up throwing up and they often start the IV to keep you from getting dehydrated.
gumeshoe
by on Oct. 11, 2012 at 5:01 PM

Talking to someone and treating them as an equal is not what this pamphlet does. It's working is verbatim. You will wear a gown, you will have an IV, you will have CFM. That is not how equals talk.

We are advocating women research and know about these things. So they say ok my water is low, how low? They get the info then they can google it and make sure they are given appropriate information.

No one here has said the shunned medical attention. I am very happy with my Dr, I am happy with his staff. If the hospital treated patients like the dr's office do, I would have had nothing to post about.

I don't know why you don't leave this, stop contradicting yourself, and stop making wildly incorrect accustaions. You say you being treated as an equal is important, but then you say I am silly to want to be comfortable by refusing non evidence based medicine. If a gown and my butt hanging out is an issue for me and they insist on it they are not treating me as an equal. Over something that isn't a medically proven issue. If I wear a bikini top and a skirt there is exactly the same access.

Quoting Jaybo:

We all know or should know, if a doctor talks to you, or treats you as if you don't have a brain, you find another doctor who will talk and treat you as an equal. We all know or should know, we have a voice in the treatment our doctors prescribe, & most of us do speak up, but in your world & the OPs world, that's not good enough. According to you & the OP, doctors are ignorant dolts who only want your money, & women,especially pregnant women, should ignore any and all advice they offer.   

Why don't we leave it at this. You live in your world where you shun doctors and any medical intervention/help, & I'll live in my world where I do not shun doctors & I do accept medical intervention/help.  


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